Michael Saylor Interview: How to Build the Company with the Most Bitcoin in the World?
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Michael Saylor Interview: How to Build the Company with the Most Bitcoin in the World?
Even if Bitcoin drops by 98%, Strategy will not face liquidation risk, as the company holds permanent capital.
Navigating Web3 tides with focused insightsAuthor: Wu Shuo Blockchain
In this interview, Wu Shuo's Colin speaks with Michael Saylor, founder of MicroStrategy, on the following topics: Will MicroStrategy continue buying bitcoin indefinitely? Is there a risk of MicroStrategy being liquidated? How does he view crypto cycles and the potential bear market ahead? Will MicroStrategy lend or stake its bitcoin to earn yield? What does he think about Asian companies imitating MicroStrategy? Will MicroStrategy develop its own Bitcoin Layer 2 network? How much bitcoin does Michael personally hold, and why did he announce he will destroy his private keys upon death? Does he still support the idea that custodial storage is safer than self-custody? What are his thoughts on Trump’s new policies and national bitcoin reserves? Is there a risk of U.S. centralization in bitcoin? Is bitcoin too expensive—only accessible to the wealthy and institutions—and what about younger generations favoring Memecoins? Is bitcoin a religion? And what advice does he have for Chinese investors?
As of February 9, 2025, MicroStrategy holds 478,740 BTC, with a total acquisition cost of $31.1 billion, averaging $65,033 per BTC, making it the largest corporate holder of bitcoin globally.
The audio transcription was completed by GPT and may contain errors. Please listen to the full podcast:
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https://www.xiaoyuzhoufm.com/episodes/67b02f39606e5c594095f4d0
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Can you introduce yourself and MicroStrategy?
Michael Saylor:
I founded MicroStrategy at the end of 1989. We started as a business intelligence software company and went public in 1998. I’ve also founded around a dozen other companies, including another publicly traded firm. I’ve always been interested in the history of science and how science impacts economics. I studied at MIT, majoring in aeronautical engineering and the history of science. I wrote a book called "The Mobile Wave," discussing how software migrated to mobile devices and transformed industries. I explored what happens when software runs on mobile devices. In 2020, I discovered bitcoin, and shortly after, our company became the first to adopt bitcoin on its balance sheet. Today, we are the largest corporate holder of bitcoin in the world.
Will MicroStrategy keep buying bitcoin forever? Is there a limit to how much you’ll acquire?
Michael Saylor:
Yes, we will continue acquiring bitcoin. Think of us like a real estate development company. Imagine if you were the first public company in Manhattan in 1750, continuously buying and developing Manhattan real estate—you’d keep doing it for centuries. You’re not selling; you’re accumulating. We see bitcoin as “digital Manhattan”—a digital asset. We’ll keep acquiring bitcoin and then use it as collateral to launch other businesses. For example, we are now the largest issuer of convertible bonds in the U.S. market, and we’ve just launched our first convertible preferred stock. These securities, backed by bitcoin, are unique in the market. As bitcoin’s price rises, we’ll continue doing similar things and uncover new opportunities.
Some say that if MicroStrategy’s average purchase price exceeds $150,000 per BTC in the future, it could face risks. Do you agree?
Michael Saylor:
No, I disagree. The majority of our bitcoin has been acquired through equity issuance. Right now, we hold $45–50 billion worth of bitcoin, but only $3 billion in debt—all of which is secured. Our bitcoin holdings are thus 15 times greater than our debt. Moreover, our debt is non-recourse and has maturities over four years. Even if bitcoin dropped to $1 tomorrow, we’d face no issues. Even a 98% crash wouldn’t trigger liquidation risk. We operate with permanent capital.
What do you think about bitcoin’s price cycles? Do you expect a bear market this year?
Michael Saylor:
I don’t pay much attention to cycles. I don’t believe in them. The concept comes from the first 10 to 15 years of crypto. Now we’re in the institutional investment era, where most capital comes from large institutions, primarily via equity. For instance, BlackRock and ETFs bought over $100 billion in bitcoin last year—more than miners produced. After the latest halving, the amount mined and sold has become secondary. Demand now dominates the market, entering a new phase.
Focusing too much on cycles is distracting. People try to time the market and always fail. If you tried to time buying Manhattan real estate over the past 300 years, you might have talked yourself out of buying altogether. But in reality, buying at any price over those 300 years would have been correct. The same applies to Tokyo real estate. If you tried to time Apple stock over the past 40 years, your biggest mistake would have been not buying at all. You own a dominant digital network that only goes up. I believe bitcoin will rise 29% annually on average over the next 21 years. At that rate, bitcoin could reach $13 million per coin by 2045. You can buy it today at 1/100th of that price. So does it really matter whether you buy at $95k, $105k, $92k, or $108k? Traders don’t get rich—they just trade. The world’s wealthiest individuals—Bernard Arnault, Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg, Elon Musk—became rich by acquiring and holding a dominant digital monopoly asset, not by trading.
Will MicroStrategy ever lend or stake its bitcoin to earn interest?
Michael Saylor:
I don’t think so. The smarter move is issuing securities collateralized by bitcoin. When you lend bitcoin, you take counterparty risk—they might not return it. But if you issue securities to the market, you retain custody. There are right and wrong ways to manage risk.
Wouldn’t it be better to pledge $10 billion in bitcoin, issue $1 billion in securities at 8% interest, and invest the proceeds at 60% yield? That gives you a 52% spread while keeping your assets. If you can earn 60% through the bitcoin network and borrow at 8%, 10%, or 12%, why wouldn’t you? It’s far better than risking $10 billion to earn 4%. Why take massive risk for tiny returns when you can earn 40% with zero risk?
What do you think about mining companies and Asian public firms copying MicroStrategy?
Michael Saylor:
I believe the more participants join the bitcoin network, the higher the price and the stronger the network becomes—everyone benefits. I expect we’ll go from a few early adopters to dozens, hundreds, and eventually thousands of companies joining.
You can invest in bonds yielding 2–3% after tax, or invest in bitcoin for 30–60% returns—10x the yield. Long-term, I believe rational companies will make the switch. The more companies adopt the bitcoin standard, the better it is for all holders and adopters—a virtuous cycle.
Will MicroStrategy build its own Bitcoin Layer 2 network, or support existing ones?
Michael Saylor:
We’ll observe market developments. Think of MicroStrategy as already operating on Bitcoin Layer 3. Layer 2 consists of open protocols like Lightning, while Layer 3 includes proprietary platforms like Binance, Coinbase, or MSTR. We already run a Layer 3 system processing billions in transactions daily. Recently, we launched Strike, another Layer 3 protocol, now doing tens of millions—sometimes over $50 million—daily. These secure, proprietary Layer 3 systems are robust and attract certain investors.
Lightning-like Layer 2 solutions may succeed in the future, but right now, the real hundred-billion-dollar opportunity lies in Layer 3.
How much bitcoin do you personally hold? Average purchase price? Any other cryptos?
Michael Saylor:
I don’t hold any other cryptocurrencies. About four years ago, I publicly disclosed owning 17,732 BTC, bought at slightly under $10,000 each. I don’t recall the exact number, but it’s in my public tweets. Since then, I’ve bought more but never sold. So I now hold more than before, though I haven’t disclosed the increase.
You mentioned destroying your private keys after death. Why not leave them to family or donate?
Michael Saylor:
I’m single, no children. On charity: if you have significant resources, you must ensure they’re used properly. Destroying your keys effectively donates your bitcoin proportionally to everyone in the network. Isn’t that fair? It’s the most equitable outcome.
If you believe in bitcoin and invest accordingly, anyone who destroys their keys supports others with the same beliefs. It’s an immediate, irrevocable, perpetual donation. But if I donate to a foundation, 100 years later, managers might spend it on things I wouldn’t approve. People criticize Rockefeller because some of his foundations now fund controversial projects. But Rockefeller died long ago—he might not agree either. A man dead for a century gets blamed for how his money is used. That’s the risk of leaving wealth to foundations or trusts.
There are alternatives: spend it during your life or set strict usage rules. If you have family and want to pass bitcoin to them, that could be reasonable.
But I admire Satoshi’s example. He owns 1 million BTC, never touched them. He effectively destroyed his keys and vanished. He permanently gifted 5% of the network’s value to humanity. I think that’s profoundly meaningful.
You once said banks may be safer than self-custody. Do you still believe that?
Michael Saylor:
Different people should use different custody methods. Some are great at self-custody—they should do it. Others aren’t capable. Would you let a 3-year-old manage bitcoin? An 80-year-old who can’t type or read a keyboard? A blind person—can they securely self-custody? Obviously not.
If you set up a trust for an unborn child, can they self-custody? Who should manage it? Some companies legally can’t self-custody bitcoin. Another question: do you really want your city mayor managing all citizens’ bitcoin? What if he embezzles, gets kidnapped, or murdered?
In bitcoin’s early days, many recognized self-custody importance due to “crypto cowboy” speculators and short-lived platforms. But Mt. Gox and JP Morgan are vastly different. A major bank has thousands of cybersecurity and compliance experts with strict procedures, while many crypto exchanges have just a few staff.
There’s no one-size-fits-all answer. If you live in a war zone like Iraq or North Korea and don’t self-custody, you’ll likely lose it. But many institutions can’t legally buy bitcoin without a custodian. So rationally, some should self-custody, some use mnemonic phrases, engrave them on metal, use hardware wallets, or rely on institutional custody—domestic or offshore.
The key is who you are: a city, charity, family, trust, or individual? The real question is your investment horizon: 100 years? 1,000? Or 1–5 years? Will you die in 3 years? It depends on environmental uncertainty. Do you live in Manhattan, Ukraine, or Afghanistan? Are you in Africa—and if so, which country? All these factors matter.
It also depends on physical and mental condition. Some can’t type, others can’t see phone screens, some don’t even have phones. Crypto often assumes everyone is a 20-something male. If you’re 20–40, your worldview may align. But globally, many don’t fit: cancer patients, 85-year-olds, people in vastly different circumstances. Everyone must decide based on their situation.
Being dogmatic about custody limits network growth. The wisest approach is embracing all types of participants worldwide, regardless of context. Anyone buying bitcoin-backed assets advances the network. The ultimate goal is expanding the bitcoin network.
What impact do you think Trump’s election will have on crypto? Will he create a national bitcoin reserve?
Michael Saylor:
I believe Trump’s presidency will benefit the entire industry, including bitcoin and crypto. Specific impacts remain to be seen. But if the White House, cabinet, regulators, Senate, and Congress support crypto, political consensus will favor technological progress, commerce, freedom, sovereignty, and capitalism.
This consensus could lead to constructive, positive policies helping the industry grow. What specific measures emerge remains to be seen—we’ll watch closely.
Some argue crypto may become more centralized in the U.S. Do you agree?
Michael Saylor:
No, clearly bitcoin is the most decentralized crypto asset globally. Miners and holders are worldwide. Bitcoin has the most distributed developers, holders, miners, corporate participants, and diverse regulators and policymakers. It’s also the most recognized brand in crypto.
Bitcoin is also the most stable, with almost no protocol changes. Ethereum has a 10-year roadmap with over 40 planned upgrades, while bitcoin has no such “roadmap.”
Bitcoin is finished—it was essentially complete over a decade ago, arguably since January 3, 2009. An ideal protocol is widely distributed, mathematically sound, logically consistent, and globally accepted. Currently, bitcoin is the only asset universally recognized as logically complete. So I don’t see bitcoin centralizing—I see it becoming increasingly decentralized and distributed.
Billions already hold bitcoin globally—no other crypto matches its widespread ownership, recognition, and support.
Are other cryptos worth considering? What about Memecoins?
Michael Saylor:
If you categorize digital assets: digital commodities, digital securities, digital tokens, digital NFTs, digital ABTs (asset-backed tokens), and digital currencies.
Technically, digital commodities are issuerless assets secured by computational power. Bitcoin is the strongest digital commodity. Globally, only a few similar assets exist—issuerless, computation-backed—but bitcoin holds 99% of that market. Digital commodities are best suited as money, store of value, or digital capital. In such cases, the strongest asset gets monetized; others get demonetized.
For example, if gold becomes the monetary asset, silver, copper, palladium, and paper money eventually go to zero. In crypto, bitcoin is being monetized. All other assets trying to be digital commodities will eventually go to zero relative to bitcoin—and should. Why hold second-best? You only need the best, and bitcoin is the best.
Stablecoins have real demand, but regulation remains uncertain. If the U.S. establishes a clear stablecoin framework allowing U.S. firms or banks to issue dollar-backed digital currencies, that market could grow 10x or 100x, potentially reaching $10 trillion.
Yet, the dollar remains the world’s strongest fiat. What’s second? The euro. But the euro’s future? Zero. Nobody truly wants alternative currencies. No one wants yen, euros, or African, Asian, or South American fiats. Talk to Europeans—they show 99% demand for digital dollars, not digital euros. The euro is the second-strongest currency, yet markets still prefer dollars.
Memecoins are digital tokens. No regulatory framework exists, so no legal path. But if a comprehensive digital asset framework emerges—say, the U.S. defines tokens as issuer-backed, digitally usable but physically useless assets—then Memecoins could fit.
If frameworks further define digital securities (issuer-backed, security-asset collateralized), ABTs (issuer-backed, physical-asset collateralized—like an ounce of silver, barrel of oil, or gold bar), and NFTs (issuer-backed, non-fungible, digitally usable assets), markets could legally issue millions of compliant assets. The problem: no such global framework exists yet.
Currently, only bitcoin has clear regulatory status—as a digital commodity in the digital capital space. If you’re investing $1B, $10B, or $100B, you need regulatory clarity, which bitcoin already has. But for digital currencies, tokens, NFTs, ABTs, and securities, clarity is lacking despite real demand.
In Washington D.C., consensus is forming around creating a digital asset framework. But Congress hasn’t passed legislation. We’re in a “gray zone”—market demand exists, regulators acknowledge the need, but laws aren’t written. Without legalization, institutional investors can’t make clear judgments. If you’re a public company or institution managing others’ money, betting $1B on uncertain assets may be inappropriate. You must wait for legal resolution—and we don’t have it yet.
Some say bitcoin is now too expensive, only the rich or institutions can afford it. Your thoughts?
Michael Saylor:
This is a misconception. Bitcoin is actually cheaper than a house, yet people still buy houses, right? Cheaper than a yacht, yet people buy yachts. Cheaper than fine art. More importantly, you don’t need a whole bitcoin—you can buy one hundred-millionth, a satoshi, costing less than a cent. You can buy $20, $200, $2,000, $200,000, $2M, or $2B worth. Acquiring bitcoin is far fairer than buying real estate in Tokyo, Hong Kong, or New York. You can’t buy 1/100,000,000 of a building, but you can buy one satoshi.
So this idea is flawed. People lack understanding, suffer cognitive bias, sometimes misled by other projects or investment ideas. But if your goal is wealth, you must overcome these biases. Buying $100 of bitcoin is smarter than $100 of stocks, because bitcoin is a digital asset, while stocks and REITs are mere securities.
In terms of ownership, stocks are vastly inferior to bitcoin. With $100 in a real estate developer, you’re a minor shareholder, a limited partner—no direct property ownership. But with $100 in bitcoin, you’re a full owner. You can self-custody, lend for yield, use as loan collateral, transfer freely. So between real estate and bitcoin, consider this: in Hong Kong, can you buy a building for $50? Impossible. Bitcoin is a fairer, superior investment.
And if you buy a Hong Kong building, you can’t move it out, right? But bitcoin—you can buy weekly, for life. Transfer it outside Hong Kong, self-custody, remove it entirely from Hong Kong’s banking system. That’s true financial power—far superior to any other asset.
So I urge respect for Satoshi’s vision. Thank you.
Many have seen your PowerPoint for Microsoft. Will you keep doing this and engaging large companies?
Michael Saylor:
Absolutely, I’m constantly engaging companies. Whenever someone shows genuine interest, I speak directly with CEOs or board members. Usually, I communicate privately through MicroStrategy videos. I publish content publicly because I want every public company to see it. For any public firm, the logic is identical—99.9% of their capital structure relies on bond financing; they should shift to bitcoin as an asset reserve.
I engage various companies periodically and consistently advocate the bitcoin standard. Just this weekend, I shared a great video from Jet King’s CFO. Jet King is India’s first company listed on the Bombay Stock Exchange to adopt the bitcoin standard, converting cash flow into bitcoin. I believe at least 100 more Indian companies will follow, so I shared the video.
At MicroStrategy, we publish extensive bitcoin-related data—BTC yields, BTC appreciation, BTC-to-dollar gains—and built a dedicated website to help companies understand financial management under the bitcoin standard. Many now mimic our practices, with their lawyers studying our financial reports and legal filings to adapt the model.
I see this as an ongoing advocacy campaign. There are 400 million companies globally—400 million! All should allocate assets based on the bitcoin standard. Of course, you can’t convince them one by one, so you produce videos, publish content, and let information spread organically.
Countless people worldwide have learned about the bitcoin standard and been inspired simply by watching my podcasts or reading MicroStrategy’s public filings. I’ve never met them, yet they know of us. I hope that in Hong Kong, someone watches our podcast, starts thinking about the bitcoin standard, and benefits from it.
We’re spreading a new economic philosophy, new technology, and new network consciousness. I believe this empowers people.
You say bitcoin is mature—will the protocol keep evolving? Your thoughts on ecosystem development?
Michael Saylor:
Certain improvements make sense. Miner nodes will keep optimizing, ledger nodes improving, hardware wallets and signing devices getting better.
On changing the bitcoin protocol, the community debates fiercely. I lean conservative. We should proceed with extreme caution and deep reflection. Most proposed changes are “iatrogenic”—causing more harm than good. Like lawmaking: people push regulations to improve markets, writing thousands of pages of laws. But impose a million rent-control laws, and housing markets collapse, rentals become harder.
Politicians and regulators propose endless ideas, but 99.9999% are terrible. So we should deeply distrust such changes. Occasionally, a necessary idea may emerge—we can consider it carefully. If broad community consensus forms, I’ll support it. But mostly, we don’t need endless protocol upgrades.
Most proposals mainly benefit a specific Layer 2 or Layer 3 solution while harming the broader bitcoin community. So we should be extremely conservative, cautious, and skeptical about protocol changes. Frankly, most proposals resemble “cancer,” doing more damage than good to the ecosystem.
Do you think bitcoin is a religion?
Michael Saylor:
I see bitcoin more as an ideology. It’s a protocol binding economic energy tightly to individuals. For the first time in human history, a mathematical and technical protocol allows capital (economic energy) to bind to individuals, companies, even nations. Nothing like this existed before. It’s revolutionary—like inventing language.
Imagine introducing digits 0–9 into language for the first time. What if I removed them, banned using numbers, even forbade saying “14”? You’d feel severely restricted, right? If I took away fire, electricity, math, speech, full sentences, or all nouns—your expressive power would be destroyed.
So I view bitcoin as an economic protocol for prosperity. It’s the first scientifically grounded, thermodynamically sound, physically reliable, mathematically rigorous economic protocol in human history. Bitcoin is an ideology—but a religion? I’m not sure. Perhaps more of a secular ideology.
Still, many see elements like math, electricity, fire as vital to human progress. If threatened, people revolt. I believe bitcoin inspires such passion because it’s a protocol for economic prosperity.
Any message for Chinese investors?
Michael Saylor:
I believe bitcoin is emerging as the world’s new capital network. This digital energy network expands daily by hundreds of millions of dollars, growing stronger. It’s powered by the world’s most powerful computing infrastructure—a decentralized network of millions of computers. Anyone globally can access it.
You can plug in by buying bitcoin, holding it, building bitcoin-based applications, or structuring families, companies, cities, even nations around it. Many entry points exist. When I joined, bitcoin’s market cap was $200 billion; now it’s over $2 trillion, soon $20T, $200T, even $400 trillion. This network will grow within our lifetimes.
Smart money flows to bitcoin. People will gradually abandon 20th-century assets—real estate, stocks, collectibles, fiat, bonds—trading old assets for new. They’ll shift from physical to digital, weak money to sound money, weaker to stronger assets.
Some ask: “What if bitcoin stops rising?” But that’s like asking: “What if water stops flowing downhill?”
What if time stops moving forward? What if something you drop from a mountain doesn’t fall? What if gravity fails? These won’t happen. If you understand bitcoin’s physics, you realize it’s not random.
It follows thermodynamics. Why does fire burn? Why generate heat? Not random. Why harness electricity? Why turn water wheels? Why melt ice? Boil water? Not random—many just don’t understand the principles. Understand economic physics, and you can build machines.
You can build hydroelectric plants, airplanes, ships. Henry Ford looked at fire—someone might ask: “What if fire goes out?” But fire doesn’t go out. The internal combustion engine ignites fire inside a machine and keeps it burning forever.
If you ignite fire in a jet engine, feed kerosene, and fly across the Pacific for 15 hours, someone might ask: “What if the fire dies?” If it dies, the plane crashes. But the point is—it won’t die. Why? Engineers designed the machine to prevent it.
So I tell everyone: you can design a better financial system. Build an economic machine fueled by bitcoin. MicroStrategy is like a “crypto reactor,” with bitcoin as fuel. This isn’t random. If you think it’s speculation, you fundamentally misunderstand it.
Long ago, people thought fire was divine—if you angered the fire god, it would extinguish. But Henry Ford didn’t believe that. He created the auto industry so everyone could own a car. Today, over a billion cars exist globally.
You must see the world as a physicist, scientist, mathematician. When you grasp how things work, you see bitcoin as a digital energy network. For the first time in human history, there’s a global digital energy network you can plug into anytime. That’s the path to prosperity.
You can flee it, complain about it, but if you want a better world, if you want wealth, if you want to change the future for 10 billion people, you must become an engineer. Don’t fear electric shocks, fire, or thunderbolts—master them, use them, drive the world forward.
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