Interview with Filecoin Founder: Web2 Algorithms Are Harmful, Could Lead to the First Native Internet Nation in the Future
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Interview with Filecoin Founder: Web2 Algorithms Are Harmful, Could Lead to the First Native Internet Nation in the Future
What is Web3, and how can we fully unlock its potential?
Navigating Web3 tides with focused insightsThis article was compiled and translated by 0xz, a TechFlow volunteer, from the Delphi Podcast interview with Juan Benet, founder of Protocol Labs and creator of IPFS and Filecoin, discussing what Web3 is, how to fully realize its potential, and even proposing that in the future we may transition into a world where Earth citizenship becomes primary, national borders gradually fade, and the first internet-native nation might emerge.
TL;DR
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Web1 is read-only; Web2 is read/write; Web3 is read/write/trust—but fundamentally, Web3 is not just about ownership.
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In the future, software can replace economic systems and legal frameworks—rights, contracts, and social property can all be programmable.
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It’s possible the first internet-native nation will emerge.
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Web1/Web2 become fragmented based on different operating platforms.
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Web3 provides a fundamental primitive: the ability to create contracts with legal grounding.
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Today, people are directing more time, energy, attention, and value creation toward the internet, independent of their geographical location.
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Positive outlook: In the future, we will transition into a world where being a citizen of Earth becomes the primary identity, and national borders will gradually fade.
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Applications built on Web3 have greater resilience and reliability.
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Web3 will give rise to information platforms grounded in freedom and civil rights.
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The rise of NFTs is influenced by open financial primitives for art—it's a result of a more democratized economy.
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Current social networks are fully centralized, controlled systems that enforce a specific set of values.
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Social networks on Web3 won’t carry the risk of full censorship or surveillance.
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Today’s computing infrastructure is so powerful it could lead to authoritarian control (worse than 1984).
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Centralized Web2 platforms tend to direct users—and often mislead them.
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With the widespread adoption of new computing interfaces like AR and VR, everything will change again.
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Web3 developers should catch up with Facebook’s progress in AR and VR, otherwise the Web3 future looks bleak.
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Monetizing personal data through advertising has been the best business model over the past decade.
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We should consider making massive investments over the next 3–5 years in decentralized Web3 to create high-quality future experiences.
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Today’s internet encourages the development of more subcultures.
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The internet creates diffusion and divergence, but also greatly increases the cost of knowledge acquisition.
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The explosion of the creator economy and NFTs happened much faster than expected.
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More Web2-scale systems are expected to be deployed in the future.
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IPFS is a method for handling content on the internet that can be served by anyone in the network.
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Filecoin is a decentralized storage network that backs up content addressed via IPFS for long-term storage and serves it wherever needed.
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In Web3, economic value flows more directly to all participants who build things or create services.
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Filecoin is launching the capability to compute around data via the addition of the Filecoin Virtual Machine (FVM).
Below is the full conversation. It’s quite long—please bear with us:
Juan’s Background
Tom: Today I’m thrilled to welcome Juan Benet, founder of Protocol Labs and co-creator of IPFS and Filecoin. Let’s begin with you introducing yourself, Juan.
Juan: I studied computer science and grew up on the internet—I started programming early, building websites, games, and diving deeper into computing. I was born in Mexico and raised in Latin America. My background is quite different from many in the traditional tech industry. I studied computer science in the U.S., and I’ve always loved biotech and other scientific fields. Overall, I'm an extreme technological optimist.
I love history, and I've observed that while there have been great highs and lows throughout human development, living standards and quality of life for most people have improved dramatically over time—largely due to advances in knowledge and technology. Most of my time is spent thinking about how to create better solutions for big problems. That’s why I got into cryptography early and realized that Web3 and crypto could be reliable solutions for the future.
I see myself as an internet citizen. Even though there’s a lot of misinformation online, people forget that misinformation existed for decades, centuries, even millennia before the internet. What matters is that the internet has brought enormous progress and benefit to humanity—and this will continue.
Tom: I have a personal question—what motivates you to build IPFS? And right now, competing with Web2 giants seems extremely difficult. Aren’t you afraid? Have you ever felt daunted by trying to change the entire structure of Web2?
Juan: That’s a great question. While it’s still hard, changing the world is easier now than it was 10, 20, or 30 years ago. But yes, it’s absolutely difficult. There are powerful groups with vested interests in maintaining the status quo—they do things the traditional way and want to slow down these changes. Decentralized, international networks are a huge challenge to them. But for me, this is a super exciting and fascinating challenge.
Juan: Throughout history, many good ideas succeeded or failed. Some were ahead of their time—others tried again later and succeeded. Many projects in the Web3 and crypto space are finally putting into practice ideas that have existed for decades. For years, they were just concepts—now, with Web3, they’re becoming real.
What Is Web3?
Tom: As we all know, Web2 offers so much that it can’t be summarized in one or two sentences. Recreating all of it in Web3 isn't necessary. What do you see as the core highlights of Web3? Can developers easily build apps? Can data ownership be easily ported?
Juan: My view might differ from mainstream perspectives. I believe the evolution of Web3 is far more significant than just changes in ownership—as described by “Web1 is read-only, Web2 is read/write, Web3 is read/write/trust.” I think “ownership” doesn’t capture the truly fundamental shift happening. I see ownership changes more as adding technical capabilities to the internet, rather than being Web3’s defining feature.
Juan: Ownership can evolve on top of Web3, but people can also build entirely new things on Web3 unrelated to ownership—like new economic structures for sharing value, or modeling value creation through proof-of-work mechanisms. Here, it’s less about owning something and more about participating in relational models between actors in an economic system. With Web3, the internet’s infrastructure undergoes a truly fundamental transformation.
Juan: The most important thing about Web3 is guaranteeing individual rights in a verifiable way. From a human rights perspective, this is fantastic—no person or platform can deny your rights. This is Web3’s most crucial characteristic. This feature can be coded and form the basis of a new economic model.
Tom: Your answer is interesting. Indeed, as you said, Web3’s verifiable interactions have deep meaning. But I imagine these interactions must differ significantly from Facebook or others. For example, could Web3 interactions be more tied to personal values?
Juan: Native Web3 platforms need to clearly define their underlying mechanisms. What capabilities and rights does the platform have? Who are the community participants? These rules are established and run via protocols on the network. This is why people associate Web3 with ownership—it’s an invention enabling property rights. Perhaps in the future, software built on Web3 will replace law and economics. If people can make programmable devices, they can also make programmable protocols and contracts—enabling social contracts and redefining rights.
Juan: Innovations in Web3—like ownership—originate here. But the innovation potential goes far beyond. If Web3 gives rise to the first internet-native country, I wouldn’t be surprised. Web3 has that level of potential. But it will certainly take a long time.
Tom: In the traditional world, we rarely see multiple nations merging. So, in Web3, could people worldwide come together across borders to create a conflict-free Web3 nation?
Juan: That’s a great question. Without Web3, I don’t think this would be possible. In the Web1/2 world, the internet fragments based on which platform runs where. In sci-fi, we had cyberspace, then the metaverse. But in Web1/2, we never said, “this platform runs from cyberspace,” or treated it as a jurisdiction like the UN. We lacked the conceptual tools to locate such spaces geographically.
Juan: But with Web3 and crypto, we gain a foundational primitive: the ability to create contracts and establish legal foundations. Once you have contracts and legal grounding, you can build economies on top. That’s why we get cryptocurrencies and digital assets. These are basic, useful primitives, and from them, bigger things can emerge. Will we see the first wave of internet nations? Who knows. There’s a theory about nation-states requiring land and UN recognition. But what happens online when people don’t care about land? Does such a nation need an army? These are open questions.
Consumer Benefits of Using Web3
Juan: People are increasingly shifting time and presence to the internet, rather than being tied to specific moments or locations. I don’t know if this means new entities will emerge. I don’t know if, in the future, you’ll be able to order a small ethnic nation-state on a crypto network or obtain citizenship. But we might see this happen in the next 10 to 20 years.
Tom: Great answer. That’s a cool way to think. I try to avoid questions like “What would Facebook look like in Web3?” But for end consumers worldwide, most don’t care how protocols work. They don’t want to see code. They aren’t interested in details. What can consumers actually get from Web3? Say, in 10 years, Joe Schmoe logs into his computer in a Web3 world—what will he get that he couldn’t in Web2?
Juan: There might be two types of benefits. First: greater resilience and reliability. Today, most apps depend on whether the current platform wants to keep serving. That’s why apps shut down or certain communities or countries lose access. It’s vital to build information platforms and digital environments based on Enlightenment values—freedom, civil rights. Right now, this depends on corporations. I believe embedding rights into these systems is crucial.
Juan: Second: the rise of NFTs is a compelling example of what happens when economies decentralize. Open financial primitives around art enabled the rise of 2D and 3D NFT ecosystems. Now, vast numbers of people can make a living creating the art they love. They earn livable wages via NFTs and pursue passions in ways completely different from traditional structures.
Juan: Another aspect is more personalized control over social network algorithms. Today’s social networks are fully centralized, centrally controlled systems enforcing a single set of values—especially within their jurisdictions. I think we may reach a point where social networks function more like email: anyone can say anything without fear of censorship or surveillance.
Juan: In Web3, anyone can build a metaverse or cyberspace with the right environment—whether hanging out, playing board games, viewing art, or watching movies—connected to anyone else on Earth. Past attempts failed. A key reason: it requires massive UX work and artistic effort.
The Harm of Web2 Algorithms
Juan: If we create new platforms where creators benefit greatly—either through long-term governance or financial gains from value streams—we’ll see more people creating. I believe NFTs will creatively power the metaverse. Honestly, I’d bet more on an NFT-driven metaverse than one built by a single company. A major reason: the metaverse needs a vast, diverse environment to attract global participation—requiring hundreds of thousands of hours of artistic and creative labor.
Juan: To achieve this, I see two paths: funding more artists and creators globally, or using AI and machine learning.
Tom: Your example is interesting. You mentioned consumers controlling algorithms. Web2 has many algorithm issues affecting consumers. Though people haven’t fully grasped their severity, as they move to Web3, they’ll start seeing how harmful Web2’s imposed controls are. We don’t even know what’s under Facebook because it’s closed.
Juan: I think many already feel this—more so than 2, 3, 5, or 10 years ago. On one hand, people increasingly realize social networks and their algorithms leak privacy in shaping information flows. On the other, at least a subset of internet users are starting to recognize these issues through Web3 and crypto. Ultimately, most people will gravitate toward what’s easier, better, and fits their daily experience. In Web2, that meant expensive user experiences.
Juan: Things like Facebook and Twitter are inevitable outcomes of Web2. As people live more online, fluently use various platforms, and sustain creativity through new economic models, creating high-quality experiences in Web3 becomes easier.
Juan: Individual consumers may face a choice: “Do I go to Facebook’s walled garden Experience A, or to this potentially worse UX in a decentralized thing that lets me do what I want?” So Web3 must deliver better UX. Making it cheaper and easier for developers to build great UX in Web3—transforming how systems and economies are built—is key to widespread Web3 adoption.
Juan: In such Web3 virtual environments, developers can craft smoother, higher-quality experiences without forcing everyone into one camp. I hope this proves true. Otherwise, we may see a more centralized metaverse that’s harder and costlier to produce. I don’t think people choose daily apps based on centralization vs. decentralization—they pick convenience over security or privacy. Certain communities have learned to prioritize security and privacy, but they’re still few. There’s huge room to grow.
Juan: The computing infrastructure we’ve built is today extremely powerful. We must properly constrain centrally controlled protocols and embed human rights into code and protocols governing everything. The best thing we can do is incentivize countless developers, builders, and creators to build a better world.
Fulfilling Web3’s Potential
Tom: When I saw Microsoft’s Activision acquisition, I felt both validation for the metaverse and fear they’d implement it in a centralized way. One interesting point you made was about developer-provided experiences. As a consumer—not a developer—it’s hard to visualize. Can Web3 developers’ programs avoid being isolated islands like in Web2? If I have a social circle in one Web3 app, can I reuse it in another? If we’re friends, can I easily port you to another program? Do you think we’ve reached the point where developers can leverage these advantages? I don’t think we’re there yet—and we might be on the edge of a cliff.
Juan: I think we’ve begun experimenting. I strongly believe in its potential. Creating a computing infrastructure where relationships and information fragments are easily accessible by many app types—and ultimately user-controlled—has huge promise. We’re approaching this goal. Web3 is entirely about this. Web3 enables this far better than Web1 or Web2.
Juan: High-value transactions matter most—NFTs are a perfect example. People create property linked to other things—paintings, 3D rooms, games, films, songs—and interactions around that content can exist independently of the app used to view it. You can have many NFT browsers or build many different apps atop them. Assets become programmable and usable across many app types. The feasibility of many systems depends on transaction costs.
Juan: Today, we can’t build Twitter or Facebook equivalents in Web3. Maybe when costs drop enough, portable, app-independent friend circles will emerge. It’s hard because social graphs and interest models heavily depend on user profiles. Twitter followers differ from Facebook friends, who may differ from TikTok fans. We need highly open versions or greater portability—where content or algorithms transfer across platforms, e.g., “since you liked this person’s content here, you might like their content there.”
Juan: A less experience-critical example is photos—personal, family, travel pictures. This is an area where many app types should plug in seamlessly. Another key portability frontier: games sharing characters and assets. This has long been a dream in Web3/crypto.
Juan: I think this will be popular long-term. It’ll take time to figure out, but it’ll enable stronger game economies. Today, engaging one game world doesn’t extend to others—so costs are super high. Portability will be a great way to blend these worlds.
Web3 Technologies That Will Dominate the Future
Tom: On gaming, I fully agree. You mentioned many Web2 apps like Facebook. One concern: I don’t know how to adapt to new environments. Take Microsoft—we see Facebook launching its Web3 version. I worry that as an ecosystem, crypto is tiny. We haven’t gained global recognition or usage. How do you envision people entering Web3 without going through existing Web2 companies?
Juan: It hinges on entry points—today, browsers and mobile app stores. Centralized players tend to steer users because they control computing platforms. Though in 2005 or 2010 people may have felt independent, today ~2–3 billion people use the internet or smartphones in some way—they’re accustomed to online interactions.
Juan: You see this in Brave’s growth—surprisingly fast. Much of it comes from people appreciating platform fluidity and swappability. Once we get new computing interfaces—AR, VR, others—everything will change again. This is why we should all worry about Facebook: they lead in AR/VR versus most others. We must stay vigilant against their attempt to create a bad, controlled world. The only solution: massive investment now, over the next 2–3 years, in decentralized Web3 to shape the next generation of experiences. Regulation plays a role too—maybe Oculus helps, since it’s such a great experience.
Tom: I completely agree. But have you imagined a world where Facebook and Microsoft win Web3? Have you foreseen a scenario where we fail—a semi-centralized world where they control everything?
Juan: It’s possible. Bad outcomes happen when individuals or groups act in certain ways. Large, well-funded groups online can push this. So yes, it’s definitely possible.
Juan: But from another angle, even if they wanted to, they might lack the capacity. Facebook is a company run by thousands, implementing specific behaviors. They do this because of massive economic returns—it’s one of the planet’s best businesses, arguably the best of the last decade. Controlling data and monetizing it via ads makes a company thrive—you have to do it. Even without Facebook, similar systems would emerge—better or worse. This business model fit its era perfectly. But it may not suit Web3.
Juan: More importantly, we need to rethink economic structures and redirect value flows. For example, if Facebook reinvented itself with a different experience—funded not by ads or user data control, but by selling virtual land—and proved it’s a better business (maybe it is)—their behavior could shift dramatically. I don’t know if this will happen. Companies of that scale develop cultures with inertia—very hard to change. So Web3 businesses must be much larger, with fundamentally different value propositions, or the momentum fades. But this scenario is absolutely possible.
Juan: Over the next 3–5 years, many groups will build extremely high-quality experiences outside those environments in fully decentralized ways. Zuckerberg renaming Facebook to Meta—so frustrating, right? Because you can’t say “metaverse” without “meta.” Very annoying. We might need a new word. “Metaverse” itself is relatively new—it used to be called cyberspace.
Web3 Communities
Tom: Great answer. I fully agree. I think Facebook may be too big to pivot so drastically. Their whole business relies on ads, regulations, stocks—not tokens. One thing I’d like to revisit: earlier you made a strong point about building Web3 economies beyond borders, about human rights. It’s hard to conceptualize—like, I’m American, but in Web3, will people start identifying with Web3 communities instead of political beliefs or residence? How do you see people identifying with Web3?
Juan: Looking back decades—even centuries—human interaction, especially recently, increasingly happens online. Most work occurs on the web—email, messages, Facebook. The internet permeates nearly every aspect of human life.
Juan: Crypto is creating a new jurisdictional layer based on smart contracts, and a new economy based on internationally transferable, portable digital assets. What it means to interact, work somewhere, buy property—over time, all these will have internet-native equivalents. People may prefer assets from certain regions—U.S., EU, UK—just like regional preferences today. But the actual rules are programmable smart contract assets.
Juan: Thus, they’ll communicate in ways more meaningful than national borders. Track how many people interact across geographies, cities, jobs—the number is rising. Unless major geopolitical issues arise, this trend will continue. As interaction grows, at some point people will suddenly identify as global citizens, not local ones. Their community will matter more than nationality.
Juan: You see this in Europe—people travel freely, move around. Nations yield more to unions—greatly aided by the internet. Think of Reddit communities. Look at a random subreddit’s global participant distribution. Consider one person’s relationships—all these people scattered across 90% different geographic regions or nation-states.
Juan: This dispersion suggests that if we can establish proper civil rights globally and enforce them at the network layer, it could greatly help. Communities people participate in could eventually outweigh the nations they were born into. Not yet true—borders still matter. There are reasons, but I don’t think it’s good. If this persists, I don’t see humanity thriving in 30–50 years.
Subcultures on the Internet
Juan: On computers, you can experiment with many rule types. You can freely access different things online—explore various economies, substructures. You can explore anywhere, without needing a nation-state. You can spin up a new blockchain or economic network, test new rules, define how value transfers from other economies. Nation-states may persist, but likely due to geopolitics, resources, power structures.
Juan: If nation-states remain dominant, that’s a very negative outlook. I hope I’m wrong. My sense is, if the future stays stable and peaceful, we may transition into a world where we’re all Earth citizens.
Tom: Having human rights embedded at the protocol layer of the world is incredible. Maybe we don’t need to go that far to realize this. Still, I’m confused. Take Facebook—I debate with people worldwide on shared Web3 platforms. Seems chaotic. Do you foresee subsystems? Probably need layers to reduce chaos.
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