Interview with Phantom and Pudgy Penguins CEO: The industry inflection point has arrived—who will win the favor of the next wave of crypto users?
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Interview with Phantom and Pudgy Penguins CEO: The industry inflection point has arrived—who will win the favor of the next wave of crypto users?
The era of relying on speculative expectations has ended.
Navigating Web3 tides with focused insightsCompiled & Translated: TechFlow
Guests: Brandon Millman, CEO of Phantom; Luca Netz, CEO of Pudgy Penguins
Host: Laura Shin
Podcast Source: Unchained
Original Title: Companies Are Racing to Bring People Onchain. Who Is Best Positioned?
Release Date: August 21, 2025
Key Takeaways
Crypto has entered a critical phase focused on winning mass user adoption.
In this episode of Unchained, Brandon Millman, CEO of Phantom, and Luca Netz, CEO of Pudgy Penguins, come together to discuss who will win over the next 100 million crypto users.
Will product-driven startups break through first? Or will Web2 giants like X and Meta seize the market? Could crypto-native apps like Phantom emerge as leaders? From competition in payments to battles among exchanges and the grand vision of the "super app," both guests analyze where real value will accumulate and explain why the era of "easy money" for entrepreneurs is over.
Highlights Summary
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Coinbase should focus on becoming the "JP Morgan" of crypto.
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The nature and purpose of trading are undergoing significant changes, increasingly resembling entertainment or thrill-seeking behavior.
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The true winners will be those companies that can not only attract the next generation of users but also effectively adapt to evolving on-chain environments.
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Whoever can capture the latest trends in on-chain finance, innovate with an "on-chain-first" approach, and seamlessly integrate into the new attention economy may become the dominant player in this space.
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In the crypto industry, the barrier to entry for startups is extremely low, while the potential to build billion-dollar companies is very high. The future will be an era where top entrepreneurs maintain sustained advantages—only a few elite founders will continue to pull ahead, intensifying industry competition and forcing people to identify who the real standouts are.
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The era driven by speculative expectations is over. The current focus must be on leveraging hyper-financialization and global payment networks, combining them with global liquidity and composability to truly build disruptive technologies that change the world—not just promoting narratives about changing the world without taking real action. The future will be an era of success based on results, not speculation.
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As momentum returns to crypto, I want Pudgy Penguins to become the most familiar and trusted IP, resonating emotionally with users.
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After several years, Phantom now has far more users than MetaMask, with more people accessing the crypto ecosystem through Phantom. This validates our theory—that user experience is the bottleneck in industry development.
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As entrepreneurs, you must choose your battlefield and clearly understand your strengths and weaknesses. You need to face reality head-on. Successful entrepreneurs must focus on one domain. Trying to do everything well at once is nearly impossible and destined to fail.
What Stage Is Crypto Currently In?
Brandon Still Believes Now Is a Great Time to Build in Crypto
Laura:
We're at a pivotal moment in crypto's evolution, with current emphasis seemingly centered on "user adoption." Many large fintech firms, banks, and even multinational corporations are actively entering or exploring how to enter the crypto space. At the same time, we see crypto companies collaborating with traditional businesses or gradually moving into traditional finance, such as payments.
Let’s start with a broad overview of crypto’s development journey. How would you describe the characteristics of the current phase? What’s different for entrepreneurs now compared to previous cycles or earlier stages? Brandon, would you like to kick us off?
Brandon:
I'm glad to share thoughts on Phantom and the latest developments in crypto. As a founder and entrepreneur in the crypto space, I believe this is an incredibly exciting time.
User adoption in crypto has recently increased significantly. Almost daily, news reports highlight some fintech company or traditional financial institution (like a bank) engaging with crypto in some way. This phenomenon is actually the result of efforts from several prior development phases. Over the past few years, the industry's primary focus has been infrastructure building. From a technical standpoint, this involved continuously improving blockchain speed and cost efficiency; from a developer perspective, it meant advancing tooling; and from regulation, it entailed gradually establishing more robust frameworks. These efforts have matured the technological and application ecosystems of crypto. We could say that in past cycles, the main task for entrepreneurs was deep work on infrastructure.
Now, these efforts are converging and generating explosive growth effects. Open, permissionless ecosystems possess strong network effects and compounding value growth, further accelerating crypto’s adoption. I believe we’re beginning to see this “rapid growth effect” manifest. That’s my overall view of the current stage.
Luca Views This Moment as an Industry “Inflection Point”
Luca:
I see the current stage as crypto’s “inflection point,” a crucial paradigm shift. When evaluating the acquisition of Pudgy Penguins, I discussed this with my co-founders. I told them: "In crypto, the barrier to entrepreneurship is extremely low, yet the possibility of creating billion-dollar companies is exceptionally high." This phenomenon used to rely heavily on storytelling and expectations about future potential. But now that paradigm is shifting. More and more exceptional entrepreneurs are entering the field, and I believe the future will be an era where top entrepreneurs sustain their advantages. We’ll see the power law distribution take hold—a few elite entrepreneurs will keep pulling away from the rest, and intensified competition will force everyone to discover who the true outliers really are.
At the same time, I believe the era of relying on speculative expectations is over. The entrepreneurial environment going forward will be much tougher. The old model—where simply creating new asset classes or technologies led easily to value accumulation—is no longer viable. The days when non-professional entrepreneurs could effortlessly create billion-dollar companies are over, and I think that’s a good thing. The focus now must be on using hyper-financialization and global payment networks, combined with global liquidity and composability, to build truly world-changing disruptive technologies—not just promoting stories about changing the world without taking real action. I believe the future will be an era of success driven by results, not speculation. This is positive for the industry.
Today, the doors to crypto are wide open. These opportunities have always existed, but not everyone sees them. Frankly, I previously overlooked the missing pieces in the consumer crypto funnel. But if crypto is to achieve the long-anticipated mass breakthrough, certain issues remain unresolved—one being optimization of the consumer journey and driving widespread stablecoin adoption. I believe stablecoins will become a popular medium of exchange, allowing average users to transact easily via on-chain applications. One of the biggest hurdles in the crypto user growth curve is completing the transition from “zero to one.” Saran, if you’re listening, I think Phantom may offer the best “zero to one” pathway in crypto, especially within the Solana ecosystem. This represents a key paradigm shift: stablecoins give users access to dollar-denominated assets on-chain to support spending in applications.
Crypto dominates in hyper-financialization, and in a world coexisting with AI, the power law distribution will become even more pronounced. Top entrepreneurs will grow stronger, while many mid-tier players will seek new opportunities. And in crypto’s on-chain payment network, there’s no better place to build. Additionally, I’ve observed top entrepreneurs from other industries entering crypto and competing, further raising the bar for the entire sector.
Their Personal Journeys: Challenges and Opportunities of Building in Web3
Laura:
Before diving deeper into different market participants in crypto, I’d like to ask both of you—given your significant impact in expanding crypto’s reach and successfully attracting more users—could you share personal experiences on how you achieved this, and how your thinking has evolved as the industry progresses?
Brandon:
I began my tech career from 2013 to 2017 working on Twitter’s early team, where I learned how to build large-scale internet applications for tens or hundreds of millions of users. Later, during the 2017 ICO whitepaper boom, I entered crypto by joining 0x, an early DeFi startup. There, I gained deep exposure to DeFi concepts and helped define what today’s widely used decentralized exchanges look like. Through this process, I realized the importance of user experience in driving crypto adoption and identified wallet design as a major industry bottleneck. The wallet is the gateway into crypto—it determines whether users sign up and complete transactions. So we recognized that wallets were a key leverage point for industry progress, which led us to conceptualize Phantom, initially aiming to compete with MetaMask by offering a better onboarding experience.
Years later, our user base now far exceeds MetaMask’s, with more people accessing the crypto ecosystem through Phantom. This proves our theory—that user experience is the industry’s bottleneck. By applying Web2 expertise to crypto, we found numerous opportunities for improvement. Looking ahead, I believe the infrastructure phase is complete—users and capital are now in place. The next step is focusing on delivering the best possible user experience, earning trust and business, and helping users securely manage funds. This will be crypto’s next phase.
Luca:
I’d like to add that from an outside perspective, Phantom’s success story truly embodies the idea that “the best product wins.” You built the best wallet, and users naturally gathered around it, achieving breakout growth. When your product is vastly superior to competitors’, especially at a critical point in the crypto experience, massive success follows. I’m a loyal Phantom user—thank you for building such an excellent product!
For Pudgy Penguins, our product is the penguin characters and IP, which differs from functional products. I realized crypto faces a problem: crypto is taboo and intimidating for many people. So what breaks that taboo? Cute penguins. Thus, our strategy is to attract users through emotional connection rather than direct conversion. I aim to fill the emotional gap for consumers and build deep relationships with them. When we create multiple touchpoints with consumers and establish trust, they either explore crypto on their own or we guide them in.
Therefore, our conversion process revolves around reaching consumers repeatedly and building trust and credibility. As momentum returns to crypto, I want Pudgy Penguins to become the most familiar and trusted IP, resonating emotionally with users. Our marketing strategy is primarily based on touchpoints. Many see our toys in Walmart as a revenue stream—which they are—but what excites me most is their marketing power as physical touchpoints. Even when users close their computers or phones, we stay connected through these products. I believe culturally, Pudgy Penguins can occupy a significant position in the crypto industry. This is where we’ve found our niche. From this angle, our strategy includes messaging and storytelling. Pudgy Penguins are the face of crypto, its mascot, and its “underdog story.”
Our goal is meeting users where they are. Whether on Google, Instagram, X, or other social networks, penguins appear everywhere. We want to create something universally appealing, a byproduct of inheriting or acquiring this IP. A key goal for us is enabling entire families to participate. If crypto is to achieve mass adoption, how do we get every family member involved and enjoying the crypto ecosystem? From our perspective, IP plays a vital role here. And Pudgy Penguins excel at bringing together people from diverse backgrounds and mindsets. I believe combining these strategies has fueled our growth over the past few years—growth born directly from these ideas.
Who Will Lead the Next Wave of Users Into Crypto?
Laura:
Clearly, crypto isn’t a monolithic space. People can enter the crypto ecosystem in many ways. I think several players might play important roles or have a chance to dominate: First, Coinbase, because it’s so large, though its audience is mainly existing crypto users; then Robinhood, and of course Stripe; X clearly wants to become a “super app”—they’ve partnered with Polymarket and explicitly stated this as their goal. This obviously competes with Base’s ambitions since that’s their direction too. Additionally, stablecoins are clearly a key component of the next phase—Tether, Circle, and newer players like Ethena or new stablechains such as Stable Plasma, etc.
When you look at this landscape, are there any particular players with a clear edge? Or how do you envision this space evolving? I know this is a broad question—we can dive into specific segments later. But overall, what’s your take on the landscape?
Brandon:
Overall, crypto today is a “positive-sum” environment. Every new entrant adds vitality to the ecosystem and advances tools that make crypto easier to access—this is all positive for the industry. Personally, I believe now is the best time to enter crypto. As Luca mentioned, we’re at a critical inflection point.
Looking at specific players, I think Stripe is particularly noteworthy. Payments have long been seen as one of crypto’s most promising use cases—think cross-border transfers, low fees, instant settlement, etc. Yet this area hasn’t been fully developed in the U.S. market. Despite recent attention on DeFi and NFTs, I believe Stripe has the potential to break through in payments and bring meaningful innovation to the entire crypto industry. Also, X (formerly Twitter) is another player to watch due to its massive user base. This includes not only active crypto users but also many ordinary users who’ve never touched crypto. I believe X has the potential to serve as a major on-ramp, bringing new users into the broader crypto ecosystem. These are the two players I’m currently most interested in—we can discuss their specific strategies later, but that’s my initial take.
Luca:
I think three players deserve special attention—two you’ve already mentioned, and one less frequently discussed. First is USDC. If stablecoins go mainstream, USDC will undoubtedly be a major contender. Its branding, trustworthiness, and naming framework are all extremely strong. If there’s a winner in stablecoins, USDC is likely to be it.
Second is Robinhood, which I see as a true dark horse. Although Coinbase’s product hasn’t fully lived up to expectations—I say this as a loyal Coinbase supporter. But Robinhood’s product team is outstanding, possibly one of the strongest in fintech. Their product design is excellent and deeply embedded. As a heavy Robinhood user, I can say it’s fully integrated into my daily financial life. If they successfully enter the on-chain space and launch high-quality products, I believe they’ll become a major player in crypto.
The third notable player is World Liberty Financial. They follow a theory similar to Anchor’s, but without relying on high yields or exposing themselves to Luna-like risks. Their product-market fit feels authentic and effective. I believe they hold significant potential in crypto, especially within EVM ecosystems.
The Importance of Distribution—and Why Luca Strongly Wants to Invest in Phantom
Luca:
Additionally, Brandon, I believe Phantom should also be on that list. If anyone is willing to sell secondary shares in Phantom, I’d be very interested because I believe the middleware layer holds immense value-capture potential. The middleware—the service layer connecting consumers to blockchains—can efficiently capture value while avoiding leakage. Phantom has proven its strength, with the advantage of controlling user behavior, giving them flexibility to launch any new, profitable business. For example, if Phantom launches a token launcher, I believe they could become a major player, possibly even dominate the market. The key here is controlling the user interface—ultimately, value concentrates with teams that directly serve users.
From a macro perspective, blockchains themselves aren’t highly profitable, whereas the middleware layer is the true profit center. By optimizing the user interface, Phantom can offer users bank-like convenience while capturing value in areas like stablecoin payments. I’m especially excited about Phantom’s exploration in stablecoins. Laura, feel free to redirect us if we’re drifting. But I firmly believe middleware will be the most important and profitable layer in crypto. Phantom’s product demonstrates exceptional capability and ranks among the best in the industry. If they decide to monetize in the future, I believe they can unlock massive profit opportunities.
Also, I’m curious whether Phantom profits from perpetual contract trading. I believe they do—and it’s a smart model. Controlling the middleware layer will be the most successful business model and primary source of profits in crypto. That’s why I’m ready to invest in Phantom or its team via secondaries anytime.
Brandon:
I believe controlling end users is the most important and strategically significant position in crypto. This isn’t just true for crypto—it’s a core principle of internet evolution. Perhaps some of you or listeners are familiar with Ben Thompson’s “Aggregation Theory.” Before the internet, the value chain looked very different. Value was concentrated with suppliers—retailers, newspapers, TV stations, record labels—while distributors played a weaker role.
I believe controlling end users is the most important and strategic position in crypto. This applies beyond crypto—it’s a core phenomenon in internet development. Maybe some of you or listeners are familiar with Ben Thompson’s “Aggregation Theory.” Before the internet, the value chain structure was very different. Value was concentrated with suppliers rather than distributors—retailers, newspapers, TV stations, record labels, etc.
The internet changed this by introducing an open, permissionless communication layer that redefined value distribution. Distribution became easier, and supply infrastructure was already in place. What mattered most was controlling the distribution point and becoming the aggregator of user experience. Phantom’s structure mirrors this. Crypto blockchains provide an open, permissionless way to create, store, and transfer internet value. This openness allows global developers to deploy new projects and experiment. The distribution points are wallets and other user-facing apps—they help users explore and use these services securely and conveniently, gradually earning trust.
This approach also enables us to launch diverse business lines—like perpetual contract trading, which has recently become very important for us. Additionally, as Luca mentioned, we’re considering other potential lines such as stablecoin payments. These explorations will further strengthen our advantage in the middleware space.
Who Might Win the Payment Race—and What Are Their Advantages?
Laura:
Currently, key players in payments include Coinbase’s partnership with Shopify, Stripe’s Tempo, and some stablecoin chains like Plasma and Staple. To me, these are the main contenders. Of course, others exist—PayPal launched its own stablecoin, but hasn’t achieved real success. So I’d like your thoughts: How will this competition unfold? Which players may have stronger advantages? And what factors might determine the winner?
Brandon:
I think another key competitor is USDT, especially in non-U.S. markets, where it plays a significant role in payment scenarios. Payment use cases fall into two main types: peer-to-peer (P2P) payments between individuals, and consumer-to-merchant payments for goods and services. These two types have different needs and challenges.
For consumer-to-merchant payments, the biggest hurdle is merchant willingness to accept crypto. Many merchants aren’t yet familiar enough with crypto and prefer receiving dollars directly. This remains a major challenge for broader payment adoption. I believe Stripe has a clear advantage here due to its extensive merchant distribution network. Beyond physical point-of-sale, Stripe dominates e-commerce, giving it unique competitiveness on the merchant side.
Laura:
So let me ask directly: Even though Coinbase has partnered with Shopify, once Tempo launches, is the race over?
Brandon:
Absolutely not. I don’t think Tempo has even officially launched yet—we don’t yet have clarity on its actual performance. I believe the ultimate winner in this space won’t emerge in the short term. No single product will instantly win the market upon release. For now, merchant acceptance remains the biggest challenge, and Stripe may be the most promising player in solving it. Of course, there’s still work to do on the consumer side too. As Luca mentioned, Phantom could be a major on-ramp, especially in getting stablecoins into users’ hands. So I believe Phantom could become a key player in this space in the coming years. Overall, this competition will take time to fully unfold.
In the U.S., demand for P2P payments is largely satisfied. For instance, regular users find Venmo and Square Cash convenient enough. But in emerging markets, traditional payment infrastructure is often inadequate or nonexistent. That’s why USDT is widely adopted there—the value proposition is obvious. Therefore, I believe in the U.S., consumer-to-merchant payments may develop first, as the value proposition for merchants is clear: crypto payments save high credit card processing fees and enable more efficient capital flows via blockchain. This combination can genuinely advance payments.
Luca:
Laura, when you mention success criteria for stablecoins, could you clarify what you mean? Because I think the answer varies depending on perspective. If measured by new B2C users, the answer might differ; if by monthly or annual stablecoin transaction volume, it changes again; and if by highest revenue, it’s different yet again.
I was mainly thinking about user growth and transaction volume. But I agree with Brandon—it might unfold in two distinct phases. Personally, I think it might start with Stripe, getting stablecoins into users’ hands and making them comfortable with wallets. But ultimately, I do believe people will begin using stablecoins for P2P payments. So it could be a two-stage rollout. I’d be very interested if you could address each phase separately.
The answer depends on specifics. I think if Stripe can automatically convert all transactions into stablecoins, it would be hard to beat. Technically feasible, profitable, and with additional benefits. If Stripe achieves this, it would be tough to surpass in transaction volume.
That’s why I believe either a team like Phantom or a new startup will break through here. I suspect Phantom’s roadmap may already include such plans. Consider PayPal, Square, and Zelle—if their businesses could migrate onto blockchain-based payments, combined with wallet functionality and strong on/off-ramp solutions, this becomes a $100 billion opportunity. Blockchain removes borders, expanding market share from the U.S. to anywhere with internet access globally.
Does Solana’s Seeker Phone Have a Chance to Break Through?
Laura:
I know you weren’t particularly interested in Stripe earlier. But while listening, I thought of Solana’s Seeker phone. It’s a fascinating product—a hardware device, arguably ahardware wallet, also a phone, integrating features likebiometrics. I wonder—do you see this as a completely different approach? An innovative way into the market outside traditional paths?
Luca:
I think yes. However, whether hardware or software, to succeed in the market, a product must be better—or at least appear better—than existing ones. It must rival current top products. The issue is, as a phone, it’s hard to surpass giants like Apple and Android. Without top-tier talent joining, breakthroughs are unlikely. I think Seeker’s significance may extend beyond the payment discussion we’re having.
From a payments perspective, if Seeker tries to directly compete with Phantom in stablecoin payments, I think its chances are slim—adding extra complexity for users. However, hardware does have unique value in other contexts. I see Seeker as an ecosystem product supporting multiple functions, not limited to payments. For example, it could enable broader crypto applications via blockchain, where Brandon’s Phantom already leads.
Still, I believe Seeker, as a holistic crypto hardware device, is a meaningful effort from a blockchain ecosystem standpoint. Blockchain needs better user interfaces, and hardware is an underexplored area. This attempt is bold and ambitious—I support it. The product has many potential features to improve crypto experience. But purely from a stablecoin payments angle, its impact may be limited.
Brandon:
Thanks, Luca. I largely agree, especially on Phantom’s market leadership. Regarding Seeker phone, I think hardware and software follow completely different market logics, especially regarding economies of scale. To me, Seeker directly competing with iPhone doesn’t seem wise. I think Seeker should target a new direction, and Solana has its own strengths here. They’re well-funded, able to drive vision and lead industry development. So I see Seeker as a great showcase of crypto’s potential.
Personally, I don’t think it can realistically compete directly with Apple and Android. That said, I do believe crypto needs a hardware wallet revolution. Since Ledger became the dominant hardware wallet, there’s been little breakthrough. I’m very excited about Seeker’s attempt in this area.
Maybe we can circle back slightly and talk about a global P2P payment super app using stablecoins for global interaction and payments. Here, PayPal and other traditional players have consistently underperformed.
As we mentioned earlier, large public companies often face limitations innovating in crypto. They hesitate to venture into frontier areas, fearing damage to existing core businesses. I don’t think this is their fault—it’s structural. These companies struggle to effectively drive crypto forward.
On the other hand, many companies try building apps like Crypto Venmo or Crypto Square Cash, but face the biggest challenge: the “cold start problem.” Payments are social—transferring from one user to another—and both parties must use the same app. Starting from zero is extremely difficult. For example, if a new app tries to compete with Venmo, why would users switch instead of sticking with Venmo, which their friends and family already use? This is a very tough challenge to solve.
Therefore, I believe the real contenders in this space will likely be companies with massive existing user bases. These companies already connect with end consumers and have broad user networks, then layer new services on top. For example, our team occupies such a market position now, and companies like Robinhood have similar advantages. This dynamic creates major barriers for new entrants starting from scratch.
How Robinhood Could Use Privy and Bridge to Dominate the Crypto Ecosystem
Laura:
I think crypto somewhat solves the “cold start problem.” For example, if blockchains are interoperable and multiple wallet providers support USDC on Ethereum or Tether on Tron, this reduces adoption friction. But on stablecoins, one last question: What are your thoughts on Stripe acquiring Privy and Bridge? How might these acquisitions help Stripe? Or drive stablecoin adoption?
Brandon:
I think Bridge is a key piece in Stripe’s acquisition. For Stripe to enter stablecoins, it needs stablecoin issuance capability, and Bridge’s technology supports this perfectly. Bridge’s core capabilities are twofold: supporting stablecoin issuance and providing coordination for stablecoin operations. Without Bridge, Stripe would have to build these capabilities from scratch. By acquiring Bridge, they accelerate their product roadmap by gaining a highly skilled and efficient team. This gives Stripe strong technical support in stablecoin issuance, cross-chain transfers, and bank account integration. It’s a massive boost.
As for Privy, I think it’s also a fascinating acquisition. While it’s unclear how Privy’s tech will integrate into Stripe’s architecture, one obvious use case is solving merchant adoption. Many merchants hesitate to accept crypto because they’re unsure how to store and manage these assets. Privy’s wallet technology could help Stripe simplify this, making crypto payments easier for merchants. So while I may have strayed from the original question, it’s clear these acquisitions form core infrastructure for Stripe, helping them execute their plans faster. I’m very excited about their potential.
Luca:
Brandon covered it thoroughly. But I have a strategic thought to share. As a Phantom fan, I think one sign of your team’s success would be pre-installing the Phantom app on phones. That’s a huge strategic breakthrough and a direction worth full-time focus. Getting Phantom pre-installed, especially on phones in emerging markets.
You don’t need to enter mainstream Android directly—Android’s scope may be too broad. Like YouTube’s early strategy, you could start with smaller phone brands. Especially in developing markets—phone companies in Africa, for example. If Phantom becomes a pre-installed app on these devices, it’s a massive opportunity. You need someone dedicated full-time to drive this. This way, you expand your user base globally while advancing the crypto ecosystem.
Impact of the New Trading Wars on Robinhood, Coinbase, and Kraken
Laura:
While Phantom wasn’t pre-installed on the Seeker phone, when I opened it, Phantom was prominently recommended. I remember it was one of the first apps I downloaded, essentially guided by the phone’s interface. But now let’s move to trading. I know you’re both interested—especially given Robinhood’s role. This is clearly another key direction in crypto and a major driver of long-term industry growth.
Right now, we see two major players—Robinhood and Coinbase—entering the perpetual contracts space and expanding into derivatives. Plus, there are many experiments around tokenized stocks or tokenized equities. I’m curious—when observing these companies’ various attempts, who do you think has the upper hand? Which products might succeed? Which might fail due to structural flaws or weak go-to-market strategies?
Brandon:
This topic is indeed broad with many angles. Overall, I believe trading behavior is transforming with the times. In our parents’ generation, trading was a serious financial activity, typically done by professionals, rarely involving average individuals, and certainly not as entertainment.
But now, especially among younger generations, financial activities are deeply merging with entertainment and the attention economy. This phenomenon—“hyper-financialization”—means trading and other high-risk activities like sports betting are becoming more accessible and mainstream. So I believe the form and purpose of trading are undergoing significant change, increasingly resembling entertainment or thrill-seeking.
As for who’s best positioned for this trend, I believe it’s companies that earn the trust and affection of younger generations—places where young people willingly store and use their money. Clearly, in the U.S. today, Robinhood seems to occupy this spot. At the same time, we see another trend: all financial activity is migrating on-chain. So I believe the real winners will be those who not only attract the next generation but also adapt effectively to on-chain dynamics. Robinhood is acting aggressively here—launching its own blockchain, tokenized stocks, etc. I’m happy to see their progress.
Whoever captures the latest trends in on-chain finance, innovates with an “on-chain-first” mindset, and seamlessly integrates with the newattention economy may become the biggest winner in this space. Of course, there are many subcategories within this.
Does Coinbase Lack a Strong Product Team?
Laura:
You mentioned being a big fan of Robinhood. So if you were Coinbase, what would you do to challenge Robinhood in trading?
Luca:
Robinhood and Coinbase have very different product positioning. In fact, Coinbase has never been a product-centric company. For example, their recent attempts—NFT marketplace and other projects—haven’t delivered ideal results. Plus, Coinbase’s product experience simply can’t match Robinhood’s. I agree with Brandon—Coinbase should focus on becoming the “JP Morgan” of crypto. This positioning makes me more optimistic about Coinbase’s future. They should pursue this direction wholeheartedly. Because product development is an organizational capability requiring long-term cultivation—it can’t be solved simply by hiring a strong team. Few companies achieve this; it’s usually shaped top-down by culture and leadership.
Coinbase’s strength lies in trading. They have strong resources to negotiate favorable deals. Plus, they excel in brand reputation and first-mover advantage. Rather than trying to transform into a product-centric company, Coinbase should focus on its strengths like JP Morgan. I see this as a smart positioning, making me confident in Coinbase’s future.
Laura:
So you think they should abandon Brian Armstrong’s (Coinbase CEO) long-stated vision—like bringing more people on-chain? You believe they should stick with centralization instead of pushing decentralization?
Luca:
I think they should use M&A to drive innovation. If Coinbase wants to achieve strategic goals, it should acquire teams already building toward that vision. As a user since 2016, I haven’t felt Coinbase’s product experience steadily improving. In contrast, companies like FTX won market share by offering U.S. users a powerful platform for complex trading. Coinbase should have prevented FTX from taking that share—but didn’t.
In an ideal scenario, I think Coinbase’s strategic direction is correct, but their team may not fit that path. From my observation, Coinbase doesn’t operate like a product-centric company. Product development requires long-term cultivation, and leaders need product-minded thinking. I’m not sure Brian Armstrong is that kind of leader. He seems more like a strategic decision-maker focused on deals and partnerships. But if you look at Robinhood’s product, it truly reflects exceptional user experience.
For example, performing certain functions on Coinbase often involves cumbersome notifications, verifications, and approvals. On Robinhood, since opening crypto deposits last year, the process has been smooth—facial recognition, key verification—all more user-friendly.
I believe great entrepreneurs must face reality—know what they’re good at and bad at. If you’re not product-focused, you need to acquire teams already building the products you need viaM&A. Or, accept your positioning and double down on your strengths. For example, USDC and Coinbase’s trading business exemplify their trading strengths. Coinbase is one of the most reputable and trusted institutions in U.S. crypto, and they can leverage this to create shareholder value.
Of course, building great products isn’t just about individuals—it takes a strong team. I feel lucky to have an excellent team. Only years later did I realize this. Sometimes you just get lucky finding the right people. But I don’t think one person alone can drive product development, especially when building Base (Coinbase’s blockchain ecosystem). It’s a complex ecosystem spanning multiple layers, not just one app. While apps are important, expecting a leader to focus daily on product development isn’t realistic.
In contrast, Robinhood is clearly a product-centric company. Their product team focuses on user experience and responds quickly to market needs—key reasons for their success in crypto.
Is the “Super App” Concept Meaningful?
Laura:
Recent attempts at “super apps” have sparked wide discussion. Base may be the first trying this, while X claims they’re heading this way too. I’m curious about your views. Who do you think has the best shot at succeeding? What key traits must a winner possess?
Brandon:
I’m skeptical of the “super app” concept, especially as a competitive strategy. To succeed here, you need to already be a giant with a massive user base and strong distribution—like X or Facebook, which have hundreds of millions or billions of users and sufficient resources and influence to pull it off. For startups starting from zero, attempting an all-in-one “super app” is usually unworkable. Unless you have top-tier resources, this strategy will only bog you down. So I believe only companies with vast existing user bases capable of driving global interactions can succeed here.
Laura:
So you don’t think Base can initiate this? They’ve started, but can’t compete with X or other established social networks.
Brandon:
I don’t think Base will become the next “super app”—it’s a massive challenge. As an entrepreneur, when you’re the underdog, you must pick your battlefield and clearly understand your strengths and weaknesses. As Luca said, face reality and focus on your strengths. I believe trying to compete across all domains simultaneously is unfeasible. That’s why it’s hard for true “super apps” to emerge in the West. I think iOS and the App Store may be the closest Western equivalent to a “super app.”
Actually, the entire iPhone’s App Store and iOS system may be the closest thing we have to a “super app.” What defines an app fundamentally? I think it’s about forming tight bonds with end users. Apple gains tremendous pricing power through these user relationships—evident in the App Store and Apple Pay. In the East, conditions differ—some state-backed companies gain unfair distribution advantages. In the West, I think only giants like Google or Facebook can succeed here.
Luca:
I mentioned a similar view earlier when discussing blockchains, and I think it applies to the “super app” concept too. Let’s return to entrepreneurship basics: successful founders must focus on one area. Trying to do everything well at once is nearly impossible and doomed to fail. Sure, sometimes luck brings success, but this “do-everything” mindset is usually a poor strategy. So I don’t believe in the “super app” concept. I favor focused functional platforms on-chain instead of covering everything. Phantom’s product design is a good example. I think such platforms should focus on delivering on-chain functionality, not trying to cover social and hundreds of other features. That quickly becomes complex and unmanageable.
I believe you should first achieve core product-market fit (PMF) in a vertical, then expand features gradually—rather than launching a “super app” upfront without a core feature that truly attracts users.
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