Telegram founder's "DNA airdrop": At just 40, he has already made a will for his hundred children
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Telegram founder's "DNA airdrop": At just 40, he has already made a will for his hundred children
This is Pavel Durov's longest interview to date, a conversation about politics, power, and democracy.
Navigating Web3 tides with focused insightsText: Guillaume Grallet, Le Monde
Translation: angelilu, Foresight News
Editor's Note: Pavel Durov, founder and CEO of Telegram, was prosecuted in France and prohibited from leaving the country in August 2024. After ten months under judicial supervision, he has been granted permission to leave France for 14 days starting July 10—only to travel to Dubai where his family resides—while continuing to remain under judicial oversight.
In this longest interview to date with Le Point, the French magazine, Pavel Durov, co-founder and CEO of the encrypted messaging app Telegram, shares his experience being interrogated in France, reveals insights into various national authorities and intelligence agencies including the FBI and France’s foreign intelligence service (DGSE), expresses his fight for freedom of speech and concerns about the future of democracy, firmly rejects selling Telegram, and speaks of his deep affection for France. He also shares his views on Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, and Sam Altman, creator of ChatGPT.
Durov, only 40 years old, reveals he has already written a will. His wealth will be distributed equally among his six biological children and over 100 children conceived through sperm donations, with the stipulation that none of his children may inherit his assets until 30 years after his death. His secret to looking so youthful? Avoiding everything potentially addictive—no alcohol, coffee, tea, smoking, or sugar—and doing 300 consecutive push-ups followed by 300 squats every morning without stopping.
Durov says Telegram is an expense, not a revenue source for him. His liquid assets are significantly smaller and do not come from Telegram but from his Bitcoin investment back in 2013. On AI, he believes current large models aren't truly intelligent; instead, his brother Nikolai is developing genuinely "intelligent" AI.
Full Interview Transcript:
You have been charged with 17 very serious offenses involving child pornography, drug trafficking, money laundering... Do you understand what you’re accused of?
Pavel Durov: It's completely absurd. Just because criminals use our communication service among many other platforms doesn’t make those who operate it criminals… There has never been any evidence that I committed even one second of wrongdoing. But it seems I'm already being punished through this travel ban. It's as if French judges realize there isn’t enough substance for a real conviction later, so they want to punish me now. They claim Telegram refuses to cooperate. That's false. It’s the French police who failed to follow international procedures correctly. The Telegram team even had to show them how to do it properly.
Have you been summoned by the judiciary?
I met twice with the judge handling my case—in December 2024 and February 2025. Another appointment is scheduled for July. But this is madness… I understand things take time. But why must I stay in France waiting? My lawyers have already submitted all requested documents to the judicial system.
The first few days were difficult…
I was continuously interrogated at a judicial customs facility. Over four days, I answered all questions. At night, a bright light shone into my 7-square-meter room where I slept on a concrete bed. The room was clean but had no pillow. The mattress [he gestures with thumb and index finger] wasn't thicker than a yoga mat.
You seem deeply affected by being banned from leaving French territory…
Yes, profoundly. My parents suffer from severe health issues and statistically have only a few years left. I’ve lost precious time with them. Also, I have a newborn son whose first months I missed. He still doesn’t have a passport because I couldn’t be present at his birth in Dubai. And another teenage son attending boarding school in Dubai recently broke his arm and had no parental support beside him.
Has this situation impacted your activities?
Yes, definitely. For example, I was supposed to speak at last year’s Oslo Freedom Forum—the president of which was Yulia Navalnaya “Foresight News note: Yulia Navalnaya is the wife of late Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny”—and I wanted to meet her and activists from around the world to learn how they use Telegram and what we could improve. The judge forbade me from going. We had to conduct the interview live via video conference. I've fought for free speech for nearly two decades. Navalny sometimes expressed views I agreed with, sometimes opinions I didn’t endorse—but he always had the fundamental right to express himself freely, which I firmly uphold. Facing Russian authorities, I only had two choices: either submit to their demands or sell my shares and leave the country.
A frequently raised question: Are you close to Vladimir Putin?
I met only once with a high-ranking Russian official, back in 2013. At the time, I ran VKontakte (“Russia’s Facebook”) and refused to provide information about regime opponents. The meeting lasted no more than 15 minutes. This senior official insisted that, in his view, social networks should serve as government tools. Then I had two options: either fully comply with Russian authorities’ expectations or sell my company shares and leave the country. The Russian regime allowed me to choose freely. So I told them: “I understand, thank you very much.” Two months later, I sold my stake in VKontakte. I haven’t set foot in Moscow for over a decade.
Have you cooperated with Russian authorities in any way?
No. We process reports from Russia and elsewhere to remove clearly illegal content (like public promotion of illegal drugs), but we’ve never complied with requests related to political censorship or persecution. During my time at VKontakte, I publicly refused such cooperation. I was even summoned by Russian courts. In 2014, I left everything behind.
According to media outlet Important Stories, you continued visiting Russia. Some say: if you're still alive, it must be because you have an agreement with the Kremlin…
Between 2015 and 2017, I visited Russia to see my family in St. Petersburg—this was never secret; I even posted about it on social media. I also went during the pandemic to support my father. But I haven’t returned in four years, since 2021 when early articles appeared suggesting a possible war in Ukraine.
Before coming to France, you were in Azerbaijan…
Prior to arriving in Paris last August, I passed through Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, and Kyrgyzstan before reaching Azerbaijan. I stayed in Baku; President Putin arrived there two days after I left. I neither saw him nor anyone from his entourage. During that trip, I only met the president of Azerbaijan—we discussed Telegram’s role in the country. You know, within three years, I’ve met 16 heads of state. I don’t always agree with them.
Does that mean you endorse the policies of Ilham Aliyev, whom some consider authoritarian?
You know, within three years, I’ve met 16 heads of state. I don’t always agree with them. Take Paul Kagame of Rwanda. You can criticize his methods, but what he achieved in Rwanda is impressive. I realized this when visiting villages. Despite poverty and tragic history, people still smile and strive to survive.
How, in your view, has the war in Ukraine affected perceptions of Telegram?
In Russia, they say Telegram supports Ukraine. In Ukraine, they claim Telegram spreads Russian propaganda. In reality, we bear a responsibility to remain neutral. Telegram is a platform where different ideas can collide, allowing everyone access to diverse viewpoints and the freedom to decide what they believe. I’ll never comment on geopolitical conflicts, because that would immediately be interpreted as siding with one camp. A neutral platform cannot afford to do so if it wants to remain fair and apply the same rules to all. But I will always fight for equitable access to free and independent information. Once you legitimize censorship, it’s hard to turn back.
You’ve expressed concern about Europe’s Digital Services Act, aimed at combating online disinformation, hate, or illegal content…
These laws are dangerous because they might eventually be used against their creators. Today, they target so-called conspiracy theorists. Tomorrow, they might target the authors themselves. Such precedents weaken democracy in the long run. Once you legitimize censorship, it’s hard to turn back.
Sometimes you're compared to Elon Musk…
Yes, but we're very different. Elon manages multiple companies simultaneously, while I focus on just one. Elon may be highly emotional, whereas I try to think carefully before acting. But perhaps that’s also the source of his strength. One person’s strengths often become weaknesses in another context.
What about Mark Zuckerberg (Facebook founder)? What are his strengths and weaknesses?
Mark is adaptable and quick to follow trends, but he seems to lack core values that persist regardless of political climate or tech industry fashions. Again, his strengths and weaknesses may stem from the same root. Remove the weakness, and you eliminate the strength too.
And Sam Altman, founder of OpenAI, the company behind ChatGPT?
Sam possesses excellent social skills, enabling him to build alliances around ChatGPT. But doubts exist whether his technical expertise remains sufficient after co-founder Ilya [Sutskever, editor’s note] and many other scientists left OpenAI. Tracking ChatGPT’s development and their ability to maintain leadership in an increasingly competitive environment will be interesting. Let me emphasize: I make no distinction among my children.
You often mention your family. What role does it play in your life?
It’s extremely important. Recently, I wrote my will… I decided my children won’t gain access to my assets until thirty years from now. I want them to live like ordinary people, grow independently, learn self-reliance, creativity—not depend on a bank account. Let me stress: I treat all my children equally—whether born naturally or from my sperm donations. They are all my children and will have equal rights! I don’t want them fighting each other after my death.
How many children do you have?
I have six children with three different partners. Others resulted from my anonymous donations. Fifteen years ago, I began donating sperm to a clinic to help a friend. The clinic informed me that over 100 infants have since been conceived across 12 countries using my donation.
Why write this will now? At age 40, it's unusual…
My work involves risks—defending freedom earns you many enemies, including powerful ones within nations. I want to protect my children and safeguard the company I built, Telegram. I want Telegram to forever remain true to the values I defend.
You look very young…
I follow a strict lifestyle and exercise regimen: every morning, I do 300 consecutive push-ups, then 300 squats—also uninterrupted. No alcohol, coffee, tea, smoking, or sugar. In short, I avoid anything potentially addictive. I enjoy cold water—I sometimes swim in Lake Geneva or Finland during deep winter—that may surprise people (he smiles).
What will happen to Telegram after you…?
If I disappear, a nonprofit foundation will take over. My goal is to ensure continuity: I want the platform to remain independent, respecting privacy and free expression.
In the past, you were targeted by Pegasus spyware. Yet you manage without carrying a phone…
I don’t carry a mobile phone. I use an iPad to manage the Telegram app and video conference meetings. I prefer reading, thinking, and writing over staring at a phone. It gives me freedom. My team knows how to reach me, and I stay focused. Attention is our most valuable asset today. Notifications are parasites in our lives.
Is this digital asceticism?
Exactly. I prefer protecting my mind. It’s also respect toward those I interact with: I’m here, fully present, truly together with them.
Should social networks be banned for children under 15?
Such initiatives seem ineffective to me. Kids easily bypass them using VPNs. It’s unworkable. Above all, discipline must be instilled. We must show them that achieving success through effort brings priceless confidence. Prohibition is meaningless unless adults lead by example.
Do you consider yourself a political entrepreneur?
I’m not involved in politics. I’ve never voted. But I tirelessly defend freedom.
Is Donald Trump fueling global instability?
I’m not a fan of everything he does, but banning Donald Trump from social media was a mistake—even dangerously so. It sets a precedent. If we allow ourselves to treat a former U.S. president this way, it means anyone is vulnerable.
Is that why you defend free speech?
Exactly. Today, maybe it’s bad actors being censored. But tomorrow, it could be you. Freedom cannot be half-defended.
Without advertising, how do you explain Telegram’s strong growth?
We started by betting on human intelligence. If we offer users a better experience than competitors, they’ll test and adopt it. Also, people often use multiple apps—one for work, another for personal life, another for learning… Plus, our app uses minimal memory and bandwidth, making it popular in countries like Afghanistan and Iran. Although Telegram has been blocked by Iranian authorities since 2018 for refusing to ban protest channels.
Even though part of it runs on infrastructure based in Russia?
We don’t have, and never had, any infrastructure in Russia.
Do you feel certain competitors are copying you?
WhatsApp mimics our innovations with a five-year delay… But it doesn’t bother me—it validates our choices. I once met Mark Zuckerberg. I respect his business leadership, but frankly, with such vast resources, I believe they could show more originality. I recently learned WhatsApp internally established a dedicated team focused solely on tracking our moves…
You hold Signal in higher regard…
Yes, I met its head Meredith Whittaker in Paris last year. She struck me as intelligent and rational. Of course, we debate who uses the best encryption. I keep wondering why all American messaging services (Signal, WhatsApp, Facebook Messenger, Google Messages) use identical encryption—as if using anything else were forbidden. But fundamentally, Telegram and Signal stand on the same side when facing the challenges we must overcome.
Telegram has received several acquisition offers…
Google tried to buy Telegram shortly after we launched. In 2017, I met Sundar Pichai (Google’s CEO) in Mountain View, where he offered $1 billion. Google was desperate to acquire a messaging service after missing out on WhatsApp, which Facebook eventually bought. They’d tried building their own app but found it extremely difficult. Creating a successful messaging app is like nurturing a tree—it takes time and careful care.
Why did you refuse?
I didn’t hesitate for a second. It wasn’t about price—Telegram is simply not for sale. Because Telegram isn’t a commodity; it’s a project. An idea. A promise to users of independence, confidentiality, and freedom. Selling it would betray that promise. It’s impossible. I’ll never do it.
Are you still the sole shareholder of Telegram?
Yes, I own 100% of the company. No external shareholders, hence no interference. This is the only way to guarantee Telegram’s complete independence. I learned from VKontakte’s history. Once you share control, you lose freedom.
Looking back, do you have regrets about Telegram’s development?
Not really. We have a team of about fifty, headquartered in Dubai—this suffices. Small teams move faster. We also collaborate with over 1,000 service providers worldwide (mostly content moderators), but developer numbers don’t need to scale with user count. We occasionally hire new engineers, selecting winners from coding competitions we regularly organize. Our latest recruit won 17 of our contests over eight years—he was only 22. My brother Nikolai is currently working on real artificial intelligence—AI capable of logical reasoning and understanding the world.
Are you impressed by AI?
The issue is today’s generative AI, like LLMs (large language models), doesn’t actually think. It doesn’t understand; it reads vast amounts of text and repeats a consensus version. It sounds credible, but not necessarily truthful. We humans are fooled because we associate complex language with intelligence. But these models aren’t intelligent—they’re merely complex. My brother Nikolai is currently working on real AI—capable of logical thought and understanding the world.
Will it replace certain jobs?
We’re experiencing unprecedented technological acceleration. For teenagers, adaptation comes naturally. But for experienced professionals like lawyers or doctors earning high salaries, the transition will be brutal. Despite their excellence, their perceived market value may decline. Yes, jobs will disappear. But history shows others will emerge. What matters is wealth creation. Progress means being able to live like a king without working like a slave. As long as we wish to create and contribute to society, everyone will find their place.
And for Telegram?
AI enables efficient moderation. Thanks to it, we can remove up to 99% of problematic content. With millions of posts per hour, manual review is impossible. Users can also summarize discussion threads, documents, correct texts, translate, get writing assistance…
What role does your brother play beside you?
Nikolai is a genius, but he hasn’t participated in Telegram’s operational activities for years. Lately, he’s focused on foundational research, such as designing infinitely scalable blockchain architecture.
Telegram generates €500 million in profit, making you a billionaire…
Telegram has never paid me dividends, nor do I receive a salary—it’s an expense source for me, not income. I’ve spent nearly all the money earned from selling my VKontakte shares (over $200 million) to build Telegram. Later, we raised funds for Telegram’s blockchain project, but after being banned by the SEC in 2020, we had to return investors’ money. We repaid everything—but to do so, we incurred $2 billion in debt. Telegram still carries this debt.
In Paris, you mainly stay at Hôtel de Crillon, a palace. Have you grown fond of luxurious living?
I don’t own houses, yachts, or private jets—though I sometimes rent them. I enjoy staying in beautiful hotels. I believe owning possessions distracts me from my mission: building Telegram. Last October, I realized I’d worn the same few pairs of shoes for four consecutive years (my friends gifted me a new pair for my 40th birthday). I own only one formal suit, but usually wear sportswear—typically Adidas or Nike. Media estimates my wealth between $15–20 billion, but that’s just a theoretical valuation of Telegram’s potential worth. Since I won’t sell Telegram, it’s irrelevant. I don’t have that amount in my bank account. My liquid assets are far less—and they don’t come from Telegram: they stem from my 2013 Bitcoin investment.
Did growing up poor help you succeed?
I vividly remember the black jacket I wore as a teenager. I had only one, and I loved it. My mother bought it secondhand from a small local store in St. Petersburg. She held two jobs: German translator and legal assistant at an American law firm. My father taught for years without pay. The Russian state went bankrupt in the 1990s. It was tough, but educational. Even when sick, I never skipped school. My mother said: “You’re not ill—you’re going to school.”
On May 18, you accused France of influencing Romania’s elections—a claim denied by the French Foreign Ministry and DGSE…
This occurred during a private conversation in the Battles Salon at Hôtel de Crillon, with DGSE head Nicolas Lerner and a DGSE agent who previously worked at the French embassy in UAE. Nicolas told me: “We might have a problem in Romania,” and asked me to delete Telegram channels operated by supporters of a conservative candidate in Romania’s presidential election—both existing and future ones. I recall him mentioning he viewed these channels as risky due to potential protest organization. My response was clear: I didn’t suppress protesters in Belarus, Russia, Iran, or Hong Kong, and I won’t start doing so in Romania. I told them they were gravely mistaken if they thought being trapped in France meant I’d comply with all demands. I’d rather die than violate my values or betray my users.
Have you communicated with French intelligence services?
Yes, French authorities could always reach me because my office shares the same building as the French consulate in Dubai. A DGSE agent working for the French embassy, sometimes accompanied by colleagues, occasionally visited my office requesting Telegram’s help in France’s counterterrorism efforts—faster than normal legal procedures allowed due to emergencies. Last July, he again asked for help preventing potential attacks during the Olympics. We provided assistance, for which he expressed gratitude. A month later… I was arrested in Paris.
Does Telegram transmit data to authorities?
Telegram staff cannot view or read users’ messages, which explains why throughout our history we’ve never disclosed a single private message. If we receive a court order identifying a suspect in a criminal investigation, we analyze metadata, allowing us to provide IP addresses and phone numbers. That’s all.
When was your last conversation with Emmanuel Macron (French President)?
For a long time, he could send me messages on various topics via Telegram. The last time was the day I made my statement about Romania’s election and DGSE. He sent me a message (he smiles). I didn’t reply.
If he proposed meeting you?
I would refuse.
For what reason?
He understands certain things but could have done better. I placed great hope in him; he carried a genuine vision. But nearing the end of his second term, I see he hasn’t made the right choices. I’m deeply disappointed. France is becoming weaker. There’s an obsession with communication, while real power isn’t displayed—it’s demonstrated. Reality has become illusion, like Potemkin villages.
President Macron facilitated your naturalization as a French citizen in 2021 as an “exceptional foreigner,” similar to Snap co-founder Evan Spiegel…
Yes, this makes my position more delicate. I deeply admire French culture and history. Having ties to France is an honor. But the direction the president is taking worries me.
Do you question his long-term vision?
Prosperity arises from competition among ideas, companies, and policies. Today, France doesn’t encourage this. The nation is losing competitiveness. It’s paradoxical because the French possess unique talents and the ability to act in balanced, beautiful ways. They could contribute more effectively to the global economy.
They haven’t managed that?
No. Many top talents are leaving. We increasingly see them in Dubai, Abu Dhabi, the U.S., Milan… This is a real brain drain.
Why choose Dubai over Paris?
I chose Dubai because I can manage a global company more efficiently there. Unlike bureaucratic-heavy France, Dubai offers a flexible environment. Procedures are automated, AI-supported, almost everything done online. Even justice moves faster. In France, a simple tax inquiry might freeze a company’s accounts for years until it suffocates, even if later cleared. Such burdens kill entrepreneurship.
Why not the U.S.?
One major reason is pressure the U.S. government might exert, especially on tech companies. Of course, the U.S. isn’t the only country wanting to control platforms. But I’ve already faced pressure from the FBI. Moreover, in the U.S., there’s a legal mechanism allowing the government to compel an engineer to install a backdoor in software—with no right to warn anyone, not even their employer. This mechanism is called a “gag order.” If an engineer discloses this to their boss, they risk imprisonment. Such laws legally enable turning your own employees into spies without your knowledge. Then there was the incident in San Francisco—the only time I was physically attacked. I’ll never forget it.
Returning to France: Is there no politician in your eyes worthy of praise?
Politicians often lack courage. They constantly seek scapegoats to explain their failures. In France—a country whose citizens are demanding and quick to complain—this attitude only worsens things. Instead of speaking to citizens like adults saying: “Everything depends on us. Let’s roll up our sleeves and work,” they blame Trump and his tariffs, tech giants, immigration… Depending on which party speaks, the culprit changes names.
Is it too late to reform France?
If you raise one or two generations with a certain mindset, changing it takes decades. If we keep wasting time, the risk grows that the nation will face extremely drastic upheavals. Like the Soviet Union in the 1990s, we saw economic collapse, anarchy, crime, drug abuse. Then Russia emerged from that crisis with a vibrant private sector and strong growth. But 15 years later, due to other reasons, everything deteriorated again. When you delay necessary reforms too long, you eventually face collapse. French people don’t realize freedom and prosperity aren’t given by divine right.
Do you believe you're watched every day?
When I lived in Russia, I recognized agents tailing me—even in the subway. Today, I don’t even think about it anymore. Xavier Niel, whom I used to walk with in Paris, once joked: “Since intelligence agencies from different countries are all tracking you, you don’t need private security. They’re everywhere—even on rooftops, watching you!”
Do you believe in God?
I believe there’s more to life than just material existence. There’s an intangible dimension we sometimes deeply feel yet cannot name. I was baptized Christian, but I’m also deeply interested in Eastern traditions like Taoism or Buddhism. I’ve long practiced meditation and yoga. To me, all religions attempt to express the same fundamental truth using their cultural languages. I don’t want to limit myself to just one path.
Some suggest we live in a simulation orchestrated by aliens…
It’s possible. Civilizations have always tried to explain the intangible world using tools of their era. Previously, it was reincarnation, souls. Today, with technology, we talk about simulations. It’s just a contemporary way of expressing ancient mysteries. A hundred years from now, we’ll use other metaphors—perhaps even stronger ones.
Technology is powerful, yet polluting… Yet you worry about microplastic spread…
These omnipresent particles in water, air, food may eventually affect our civilization subtly, much like lead weakened Romans’ health. History remembers their empire but not forgetting lead’s role—in pipes, utensils—gradually weakening generations. Today, we observe rapidly declining male sperm concentration in many regions, partly due to plastics. If we continue ignoring these invisible pollutants, we threaten not only individual health but our very survival. The real danger is uniformity. The world is becoming too homogenized.
Do you speak Italian?
Whenever I hear someone speaking Italian, it touches me. It reminds me of my school days in Turin, where my father taught classical philology when I was between 4 and 8 years old. A teacher from Calabria was especially kind to me. Others teased me a bit: “Little Communist,” “Soviet kid”… Northern Italians could be somewhat arrogant, less welcoming toward southerners or foreigners. But the vast majority were warmly hospitable.
Do you still believe in democracy, even though it’s never been so threatened?
As long as different visions can collide and people retain choice, democracy remains a good system. Some believe alternatives could work—like enlightened monarchy—but what if successors prove incompetent? The real danger is uniformity. The world is becoming too homogenized. Everywhere, the same products, same culture… This standardization makes us fragile. We must preserve diversity in systems, ideas, and methods.
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