Exclusive Interview with Yan Xin, Founder of Sign Protocol: The Secret to Entrepreneurship is Betting on Long-Term, Cyclical Markets
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Exclusive Interview with Yan Xin, Founder of Sign Protocol: The Secret to Entrepreneurship is Betting on Long-Term, Cyclical Markets
"As long as you clearly explain your vision and make people feel it's relevant and that you're solving their problems, they will care about you."
Navigating Web3 tides with focused insightsInterviewer: XinGPT
Guest: Yan Xin, Sign
XinGPT:
Recently, the Sign social network has been trending. Everyone’s sharing Sign profile pictures and related content online. I’m curious—how did you design this? Why are people so engaged in these social media activities? This kind of engagement model feels pretty rare.
Yan Xin@Sign
To be honest, we’ve discussed this internally too. I started realizing last year that VC coins are really hard to sustain. Even if you have a successful product that makes money, that just makes you a good business—but why issue a token? Honestly, most strong tokens gain traction through airdrops, but after the airdrop, the momentum often dies.
Last year had a big impact on me. The market was bearish, everyone was struggling, and we were fundraising constantly. Since I started my company, I’ve always been building products while trying to win over VCs. But objectively speaking, if you want a successful token, what you need most isn’t VC validation. Retail investors no longer care about VC endorsements. VCs used to bring retail along, but now retail doesn’t trust them anymore. If you keep chasing VCs and can’t even catch up, it becomes nearly impossible. That’s when I realized that building a community is actually the most important thing. So starting last year, I’ve been deeply focused on how to build community.
Everything we’re doing now isn’t just for TGE hype. We started building our community at the end of last year—before TGE was even on the table—and we approached it with our own mindset: building a consumer-facing (to C) community. Building a community is completely different from launching a VC coin. You can’t just talk about your product, right?
You can’t just list features. People aren’t interested because of your features or even your product quality. They care about your vision, your vibe, your culture. We’ve put enormous effort into cultivating that.
This actually started gaining momentum from Singapore’s 2049 event. At 2049, we hosted a party and even had physical sunglasses as merchandise. We began in Korea last year and have stayed consistently active in community building ever since.
XinGPT:
I think another challenge is that you’re fundamentally a B2B product. Even many consumer-facing products today—like memes or GameFi—don’t necessarily get real usage. You started as B2B, and even Token Table is B2B. So how do you get regular users (C-end) to understand what your project is about, especially without clear user scenarios? How do you help them understand or even like your project? That seems like a tough problem.
Yan Xin@Sign
Yes, but I think first, being B2B and building a strong community are separate things. Let me give a counterexample: SpaceX. It has nothing to do with retail investors—it's a rocket launch company—but it still has a massive retail following. People watch their rocket launches religiously. As long as you clearly communicate your vision and make people feel connected, feel like you're solving real problems, or simply think what you’re doing is cool and impressive, they’ll care.
Whether you’re B2B, B2G, or B2C doesn’t matter. If your marketing message is “we’re building a modular whatever layer for some algorithmic problem,” you’re dead. Retail investors will feel zero connection.
Our goal is to make all information verifiable globally, like blockchain transactions. For example, when a Chinese citizen applies for a U.S. visa, they shouldn’t need dozens of documents—all information should be instantly verifiable. When someone moves from China to the U.S., their credit score shouldn’t reset to zero. Once people see these as real problems worth solving, they start to care.
You’re right—pure B2B is tough. So this year, we’re also launching B2C initiatives. In the coming months, we’ll reposition ourselves alongside projects like Worldcoin and Pi. We’ll launch our own Sign App—not a public chain, but a super app—and allocate 30% of our tokens for incentives. This app will be our distribution channel, something everyone can hold. It’ll host assets—we’ll include U.S. stocks, services, and integrate all our own tools. This year’s theme is B2G and B2C: partnering with around twenty countries on ID systems, welfare distribution, and sovereign blockchains.
We’re also running direct-to-consumer community events—online karaoke, poker tournaments—which we’ll fully integrate.
XinGPT:
Let’s step back a bit. We’ve known each other a long time. Initially, you positioned this project as a DocuSign competitor, then moved to attestation, then Token Table, and now UBI. What was your thought process in finding PMF? One thing I admire is that you don’t chase trends. When Dubai was hot, you were doing DocuSign—e-signatures were niche. Attestation wasn’t trendy either; ZK and public chains were hot then. Now, memes are the trend. You’ve consistently avoided chasing fads—was that intentional? Or did you just miss the boat and decide not to jump? What was your mental model for finding PMF? Was it more externally driven or internally motivated?
Yan Xin@Sign
I think there are two key points. First, internal consistency matters. When we started EthSign, our team was inexperienced, and DeFi startups were already highly complex. There was a lot of money at risk—such products might not be sustainable long-term. A startup raising funds and putting millions into smart contracts risks collapse if hacked. NFTs weren’t a fit for us either. So we picked a niche area deliberately—because we lacked the strength to compete head-on.
Later, I focused on two things. First, team coherence. Our evolution from EthSign to Token Table was coherent—most people signing agreements are involved in fundraising, so moving from signing agreements to executing them via smart contracts made sense. Second, from EthSign to Sign Protocol—going from signing and verifying agreements on-chain to enabling any digital information to be signed and verified on-chain. EthSign still runs on Sign Protocol today and has a large user base. We place huge importance on internal continuity. Too much disruption would waste past efforts and destabilize the team.
I also pay close attention to market needs. For example, we noticed last mid-year that unlock periods are extremely long—people want to sell their tokens early. These were real pain points we observed, so we acted and turned it into a business opportunity.
Chasing crypto trends is hard—they usually last only three months. By the time you recognize a trend, it’s often too late. Usually, you need to be already positioned before the wave hits. Like Virtuals—their team was already in place when the trend emerged, so they took off. If Myshell tried to jump on that trend months later, by the time they listed on Binance, it wouldn’t be hot anymore. Chasing trends is extremely difficult for startups due to timing.
XinGPT:
By the time you unlock, the project’s already off the radar.
Yan Xin@Sign
Exactly. Right now, the only viable path is becoming more traditional. We aim to be a revenue-generating company, making money monthly, and doubling down on directions we believe in. In the current climate, most people don’t believe stories anymore—no one trusts public chain narratives, ZK, or memes. They’ve all been played out and lost money.
We can only keep building what we believe in: growing our community and bringing non-crypto users into crypto. So we’re partnering with nations and expanding our territory—not chasing fleeting inner-circle trends.
Back to community building. Current marketing standards involve hiring KOLs to promote your project—just grabbing temporary heat within a closed circle. But it’s unsustainable. KOLs push new coins every week—no one stays loyal. They move on. The reason crypto isn’t progressing well is that the inner circle is small: full-time participants, liquidity—but capital is finite. That’s not working. Pi inspired me greatly—Pi users only use Pi, they don’t touch other coins. You must secure your own turf, build a real user base, install your Sign App on their phones, and not let them touch other coins.
XinGPT:
Right, that’s interesting. Serious project teams might look down on Pi—some might assume Pi users are “low IQ”—but as you said, Pi has incredibly strong mindshare. Other issues aside, its ability to capture attention is undeniable.
Yan Xin@Sign
Yeah, let me show you something impressive—we’ve done extensive research. This is a map of stores in Korea accepting Pi payments.
XinGPT:
Can they actually pay, or is it just displayed?
Yan Xin@Sign
In Korea, merchants must pay 220,000 KRW annually to accept Pi. These are real offline stores—wig shops, barbers, convenience stores.
Pi, in my view, is the closest thing to a real cryptocurrency. I’ve reflected on this—since entering crypto, narratives have been hijacked by VCs. VCs push theories about utility tokens, governance tokens. But after years, does utility really justify billion-dollar valuations? How many utilities—gas fees—are worth tens of billions? Governance tokens are even more absurd. Truly powerful tokens are community + cryptocurrency. The larger the community, the more utilities emerge organically, and governance evolves naturally—not dictated by the team. The strongest tokens have massive communities. Vitalik just wrote the client—everyone runs it. Etherscan wasn’t built by Vitalik. The real power lies in building a community where people can participate—not just buy tokens, but contribute and earn. Provide the framework, not just a financial scheme. That’s the essence of crypto—not VC theory.
XinGPT:
Right, not just buying based on profit or price speculation.
Yan Xin@Sign
Exactly. That model isn’t sustainable. Unless you start with Paradigm-level backing, Elon Musk shilling, or Trump endorsement, you can’t break through now. There are too many projects. Even if you rise, it’s often a pyramid—early players extract from latecomers. Once inflow stops, the whole thing collapses.
XinGPT:
Right, even new Binance listings aren’t pumping anymore—circulating market caps are low. What’s your take on token price? Is it a pressure point for you?
Yan Xin@Sign
Definitely. We raised funds—investors expect returns. We recently bought back shares from our pre-seed investors. Token price matters.
But how do you sustain or grow it? As I said, you need your own system. We have product and business capabilities—our company survives without selling tokens. Our business is growing. Now, we’re shifting from team-based work-to-earn to community contribution and token earning. I believe mining models are the most sustainable.
XinGPT:
So PoW still reigns, right?
You know, Ethereum and Bitcoin both started with PoW. Now UBI could mean contributing other forms of value.
Yan Xin@Sign
Exactly. Let people contribute—traffic, whether it’s Perp DEX, U.S. stocks, etc. The goal is for monetization revenue to match or discount mined token value—achieving balance creates sustainability. Pi is roughly breaking even now.
This is the expansion path I see. The advantage of PoW is everyone contributes—no contribution, no tokens. Unlike PoS, where latecomers endlessly subsidize early ones.
XinGPT:
OK. Do you have specific ideas for how community contributions will work on Sign? Contribution paths vary—Worldcoin uses iris scans, Pi uses tasks and social activity. What will Sign’s model be? Still undecided?
Yan Xin@Sign
We’ve thought this through. By the way, Worldcoin’s flaw is it’s not continuous—iris scan once, contribution ends. You accumulate data but can’t monetize it—no ongoing incentive.
Pi monetizes via community traffic—ads cover costs. We’ll follow that model, combining Worldcoin and Pi. Worldcoin has potential utility—mini apps like wallets, identity—but lacks user engagement. It’s an American-designed app: claim money once a month, no reason to open daily—traffic stalls. Pi requires daily logins—high traffic enables ads. Like Alipay: essential services plus gamified elements like Ant Farm to drive daily engagement. We’ll create a similar hybrid.
This year, I’m working with governments—offering tax decks, building chains, integrating ID systems, welfare distribution, UBI platforms—essentially helping distribute national funds and collaborate on sovereign stablecoins. For example, UAEPS: getting an ID gives you a KYC-verified stablecoin account.
Yan Xin@Sign
Yes, standard operations. Goal: 10–20 million Sign App installs. Then we run ads, embed apps—Hyperliquid, U.S. stock platforms, various services. Taking 10% on U.S. stock trades is normal. For Turks buying U.S. stocks, costs are high anyway. We’ll feature globally valuable services and assets—even pensions, insurance. Imagine a Wall Street fund managing a USDT-denominated pension. That’s our vision.
XinGPT:
Right—first, grow the user base.
Yan Xin@Sign
Exactly. User contribution will work like this: we already have four SBTs in our community, which will carry into the Sign App. Onboarding will feel like choosing a class in World of Warcraft: “Serious Builder” for co-creation; “Support Warrior” for being a reply guy—liking, commenting, providing emotional support; “Orange Blood” for referrals; and staking-related roles.
XinGPT:
Got it—so there are social mechanics. Your Alipay analogy works well—Alipay itself is like an SBT: ID registered, bank linked, mapped to blockchain address, plus social features. The idea of “blockchain Alipay” is intriguing.
Yan Xin@Sign
Yes—Alipay for the world.
XinGPT:
That’s fascinating. Combining with stablecoins also makes sense. Crypto lacks solid narratives now—Bitcoin is one, stablecoins are another. Integration could be a path. What’s your take on industry trends? Everyone seems lost—market down, flooded with VC coins and memes—unclear what’s next.
Second, both VCs and founders are directionless. Even launched projects want to pivot—it’s tough. I haven’t seen this before. In 2018–19, bear market but clear direction: build public chains, Solana, etc. Hard to fundraise, but focus was clear. Now everyone’s jumping on AI, but lacks conviction. No one knows crypto’s next narrative. Your thoughts?
Yan Xin@Sign
I agree. I returned to New York in early March, talked to several founders—everyone’s confused. We need big narratives, not small ones. Small narratives die in weeks. Pouring millions into a three-month fad is dangerous.
So I’m betting on massive themes—like our global ID system. Today, using an ID for KYC—exchanges take photos, but can’t truly verify passports. Unlike transaction verification, it’s weak. We want to change that.
I believe future digital infrastructure will be global. Global currency was the first—Starlink is global comms. More will follow: IDs, banks, diplomas—all globally verifiable. This is our blind commitment.
It’s the only credible path I see. Building here不怕归零—because it aligns with global trends.
We also target real pain points. Why do small nations partner with us? They avoid issuing their own stablecoins, yet pay 8% annual fees on digital payments—entire national electronic flows go to Visa. More extractive than crypto. They want their own national currency, payment rails—we enable that. I believe this will trend in 5–10 years. As long as our company survives, I’ll keep building.
XinGPT:
Understood. Beyond your own path, as an investor or observer, what emerging or underserved areas excite you?
Yan Xin@Sign
The areas I like, I’m already building. For example, I believe in creating mini-religions (or micro-communities). Murad said this during the memecoin hype—it stuck with me. With AI advancing rapidly, 1 billion people may lose jobs in 5 years. They won’t do R&D, nor manual labor—robots beat them. These people need platforms to stay relevant. Build a mini-religion—not a tool to complete tasks faster, but a space for mutual emotional support. That’s powerful. Today, we measure people by money and jobs. But when machines do everything, humans should provide emotional value to each other.
Even dating now is about emotional value—who needs your food? No one’s starving.
Building a system that delivers emotional value to 10 million people—that’s groundbreaking.
Our community isn’t about me broadcasting—it’s about users replying, liking, interacting—a network, not a one-to-many broadcast. Huge entrepreneurial potential here, beyond crypto.
Our company now has three pillars: community building; Sign—government partnerships and the Sign App; and Token Table—crypto brokerage, tokenizing assets. People already have USDT, it’s global. Can we let them use USDT to buy other assets? Gold’s rising, Chinese struggle to trade gold—we’ll let them buy anything via USDT, tokenize everything, trade on-chain. We plan to add U.S. stocks to the Sign App.
XinGPT:
But FTX and BMan’s Biss tried this—both halted due to compliance. Doesn’t U.S. stock trading require regulation?
Yan Xin@Sign
Possibly, but regulations evolve. If Trump returns, almost anything becomes possible—regulatory windows open. Mature markets offer no entry points for us.
XinGPT:
Right. What’s your take on the AI wave? Recently, (non-crypto) AI and robotics are booming. Many crypto projects are pivoting to AI. Will AI drain attention and capital from crypto?
Yan Xin@Sign
It’s inevitable—and healthy. Every industry needs renewal. Waves of people leave, new ones enter. Only those who remain will shape tomorrow’s crypto.
Some of us, like me, can’t do AI—so we ignore it. Others are dual-skilled—can thrive in Silicon Valley or crypto.
XinGPT:
Understood. When do you expect the next major crypto bull run?
Post-ETF, cycles diverged from expectations. The old 4-year BTC cycle model seems broken. Now there are many cycle theories. For builders, timing matters—what to do in bull vs bear markets. Your thoughts?
Yan Xin@Sign
I blindly believe in the 4-year cycle. Last year’s BTC surge to $100K aligned perfectly with predictions. Log-scale BTC price over time has been linear—last year hit $100K precisely. It hasn’t reached $150K–$200K yet, but if it does, the model holds. Overall, the pattern still holds.
Post-ETF, crypto correlates more with macro and equities. But crypto is still tiny—tens of trillions max. Just one tailwind can lift it again. Why do I believe in the 4-year cycle? Because I see no fundamental reason for it to change. The driver is retail memory—after a few years, people forget how they lost money and re-enter. FTX hurt badly, but in two years, no one cares. Didn’t Hyperliquid boom last year? People don’t care about decentralization—just need someone to shout “buy” again.
Mathematically, cycles may lengthen slowly, but human collective behavior is fixed. Patterns persist because they’ve repeated every four years—no reason to believe otherwise.
XinGPT:
Your timing has been sharp. Fundraising in 2021–22 bull market, seeking cashflow or cashflow-positive businesses in bear market. How do you navigate cycles? What should founders do in bull vs bear markets?
Yan Xin@Sign
Depends on company stage. Let me brag—I’ve never missed a bear market call. Entered crypto in 2018, bottomed perfectly. Did it again in 2021–22. I blindly trust MVRV—core valuation is when most people are underwater, prices stabilize. Still within expected range. Now we’re Series A—building products, generating revenue. In bull markets, scale up, tell bigger stories, attract attention and users. Bull markets enable government talks. In bear markets, crypto is seen as a scam—so we stay low, build quietly. Repeat.
XinGPT:
Do you expect a market rebound this or next year? Many VCs have shifted—some to market agencies, others to secondary trading, some have quit. This doesn’t seem sustainable. Will recovery come soon, or will we wait long?
Yan Xin@Sign
The market will rebound, but the landscape may not revert. Many current VCs emerged in the last cycle—there weren’t this many before. Most lack judgment—they just follow lead investors. True VCs can orchestrate deals and provide credibility. There are few such people—those VCs will survive. The rest will fade and move on.
As the industry matures, more people will join. In 2017, any blockchain claim was enough. By 2022, people knew Bitcoin. Now we’re moving toward grassroots adoption—those who bring crypto to outsiders will expand the circle. The required talent profile is changing. Like Alipay: first custodial services, then mass adoption—different teams. Future success needs traditional executors, field operators—not just VC shillers.
XinGPT:
More like the O2O era—door-to-door sales, food delivery—unlike the first internet wave of online webmasters.
Yan Xin@Sign
Exactly. That era is over.
XinGPT:
Attention is harder to capture, more fragmented.
Yan Xin@Sign
The true believers—those who understand Bitcoin, decentralization—from 2013, 2015, 2017—are already in. They’ve cycled in and out. To grow, we must now reach people with IQ 70–50. They don’t care about decentralization—they care about benefits. The language, the approach—it’s entirely different. The “decentralized future” crowd is gone.
XinGPT:
You’re spot on. Pure ideological, technical narratives don’t gain traction now—they’re stuck in insular loops, can’t break out.
The biggest issue now is lack of positive externalities. Internal storytelling generates no real-world benefit. Only outreach—field ops, UBI—can bring in new users.
I wonder—can we use non-crypto methods? Like building AI apps, consumer apps—to first acquire users, then gradually introduce tokenization, not launch with a token. Wait until users grow, then expand into crypto. Is this path viable?
Yan Xin@Sign
I don’t think you need to “expand into crypto.” If anything, you should “shrink into crypto.” Users of AI, payments, apps vastly outnumber crypto natives. You can issue a token—but you don’t need to play with crypto VCs or degens. Build on your AI user base, launch a token for them to enjoy. No need to return to the familiar crypto circle. No need for degens and VCs to buy your token—they’ll sell within a week anyway. From a certain perspective, they’re meaningless to you. They won’t hold. They only boost Binance volume—not your project’s health.
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